Howdy,, How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]." Thanks, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
I think you just need to let scripts run in your browser for nanog.org. It uses Javascript to add the emails in after the fact, it appears. On Apr 21, 2020, 17:15, at 17:15, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
Howdy,,
How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]."
Thanks, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
I think you just need to let scripts run in your browser for nanog.org.
sad. http://nanog.org used to be the brilliant example of a fully featured web site sans javascript, flash, ... randy
Peace, On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 12:45 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
sad. http://nanog.org used to be the brilliant example of a fully featured web site sans javascript, flash, ...
That was long ago now. It was using Cvent for everything meeting-related for 3 years already, and Cvent doesn't feel good with JS turned off. As for the flash, it is quite reliably dead so no need to worry. -- Töma
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 08:05:39AM +0300, Töma Gavrichenkov wrote:
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 12:45 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
sad. http://nanog.org used to be the brilliant example of a fully featured web site sans javascript, flash, ...
That was long ago now. It was using Cvent for everything meeting-related for 3 years already, and Cvent doesn't feel good with JS turned off.
Yes -- I think we all understand the technical problems with the site. Thanks for helping Randy with being precise.
On 4/23/20 6:43 AM, John Osmon wrote:
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 08:05:39AM +0300, Töma Gavrichenkov wrote:
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 12:45 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
sad. http://nanog.org used to be the brilliant example of a fully featured web site sans javascript, flash, ...
That was long ago now. It was using Cvent for everything meeting-related for 3 years already, and Cvent doesn't feel good with JS turned off.
Yes -- I think we all understand the technical problems with the site.
Thanks for helping Randy with being precise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ-LivK4-78 Sorry -- couldn't resist. Believe me, I've been on the receiving end of this myself.
Neil Hanlon <neil@shrug.pw> wrote:
I think you just need to let scripts run in your browser for nanog.org.
It uses Javascript to add the emails in after the fact, it appears.
Yep. It's obfuscation via an XOR with a key included in the href. So if you do not want to run javascript, you can grab the href, pull out the key, xor the remaining obfuscated string with it and you get the address. I.e.: for email in $(curl https://archive.nanog.org/list | sed -n -e 's/.*cfemail="\(.*\)".*>/\1/p'); do n=0; for b in $(echo "${email}" | sed -e 's/\(..\)/\1 /g'); do if [ $n -eq 0 ]; then key=$b; else printf "\\$(printf "%o" $(( 0x${key} ^ 0x${b})) )"; fi; n=1; done; echo; done It's all so obvious, isn't it? -Jan "This Email As A Tweet": https://twitter.com/jschauma/status/1191062800082317312
On 4/21/20 5:11 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Howdy,,
How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]."
It's a mailman list, so nanog-owner@nanog.org should work. If not reach out to the communications committee. Now i did try searching the website for the communications committee, and I can't tell if it's still a thing. The one time I actually interacted with them, I just emailed Matt Griswold, but that was years ago. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On 4/21/20 6:28 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:
On 4/21/20 5:11 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Howdy,,
How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]."
It's a mailman list, so nanog-owner@nanog.org should work. If not reach out to the communications committee.
Now i did try searching the website for the communications committee, and I can't tell if it's still a thing. The one time I actually interacted with them, I just emailed Matt Griswold, but that was years ago.
I'm also assuming this is about the 5 bounce messages I got from this last message to the list "Message to 9728466595@email.uscc.net failed." Lets see if it honors "Reply-to:" :) -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:36 PM Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
I'm also assuming this is about the 5 bounce messages I got from this last message to the list "Message to 9728466595@email.uscc.net failed."
Them and the Swedish site that's still opening tickets in Swedish in response to nanog list posts. I was thinking of volunteering to help. It's not exceptionally hard to figure out which list subscriber is the problem but it's not baked in to mailman; you have to do a little bit of work. -Bill -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
And it is still on going. Just got 4 of these. Mark
On 22 Apr 2020, at 08:34, Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 4/21/20 6:28 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:
On 4/21/20 5:11 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Howdy,,
How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]."
It's a mailman list, so nanog-owner@nanog.org should work. If not reach out to the communications committee.
Now i did try searching the website for the communications committee, and I can't tell if it's still a thing. The one time I actually interacted with them, I just emailed Matt Griswold, but that was years ago.
I'm also assuming this is about the 5 bounce messages I got from this last message to the list "Message to 9728466595@email.uscc.net failed."
Lets see if it honors "Reply-to:" :) -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
-- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
On 2020-04-30 02:43, Mark Andrews wrote:
And it is still on going. Just got 4 of these.
Mark
Technical proposal how to solve that. At 1st of month send monthly reminder manually, to each subscriber, but encode recipient address in Reply-To: a bit special way. First, you need catch-all alias on special domain. Then, you calculate reply-to, for example if destination recipient: hash("secret-keyword" + user@domain.com)=aabbccdd So, it becomes: Reply-To: aabbccdd@monthly.nanog.org Then just check all bounces received to *@monthly.nanog.org, and unsubscribe relevant users.
[ Bunch of replies to messages in thread bundled here. ] On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 06:28:48PM -0400, Bryan Fields wrote:
It's a mailman list, so nanog-owner@nanog.org should work. If not reach out to the communications committee.
All mailing lists should support that, regardless of what's running them. Mailman, thankfully, makes it easy for configuring it by default. Other topics: - I've received erroneous bounces from @email.uscc.net as well. It should be possible to track down the culprit via Mailman's logs and the MTA's logs. - There is zero point in obfuscating email addresses in archives or anywhere else on the 'net. None. There hasn't been any point for most of twenty years. It's cargo cult "privacy" and that capability should be excised from Mailman's source code, because its presence unfortunately encourages people to indulge in a worst practice. - I also volunteered (in 2018? not sure, need coffee) to help out with -owner technical issues, but never heard anything back. - One of the queries that I've sent but not had an answer to is whether the entire archives are available in "mbox" format. (Including the older ones.) If they are, then it should be pretty easy to fold the old pre-Mailman archives into the current with-Mailman archives. ---rsk
On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:33 AM Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
- I've received erroneous bounces from @email.uscc.net as well. It should be possible to track down the culprit via Mailman's logs and the MTA's logs.
Hi Rich, One of the annoyances with both those guys and the swedish folks is that they're not sending messages to the return path, they're responding to the header from address. Mailman at NANOG never sees it. It doesn't pass through their servers. Even if mailman saw it, mailman doesn't use VERP. It has to scan the message to match the subscriber and that doesn't consistently work. The subscriber address forwards to another address, the second address bounces and the bounce message doesn't necessarily contain the original subscriber address. To identify these jokers the ops will probably have to send a unique message to each subscriber with crafted headers. That can be folded in to a message that would go to the list anyway but the capability isn't baked in to mailman.
- There is zero point in obfuscating email addresses in archives or anywhere else on the 'net. None. There hasn't been any point for most of twenty years.
Not with open subscription where any spammer can join the list to harvest the addresses of everybody who sends. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On 4/23/20 1:47 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Even if mailman saw it, mailman doesn't use VERP.
Both 2.1 and 3.0 of mailman support VERP. I've had it running for some time on mailman 2.1. I'm not sure how it will impact delivery time (a consideration). I've found it to be a non issue in my case. I'd be willing to talk off list if anyone wants details on how to configure and test it. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:47:18AM -0700, William Herrin wrote:
One of the annoyances with both those guys and the swedish folks is that they're not sending messages to the return path, they're responding to the header from address. Mailman at NANOG never sees it. It doesn't pass through their servers.
Yeah, I know: I've seen similar things on the Mailman-powered mailing lists that I've run.
Even if mailman saw it, mailman doesn't use VERP. It has to scan the message to match the subscriber and that doesn't consistently work. The subscriber address forwards to another address, the second address bounces and the bounce message doesn't necessarily contain the original subscriber address.
To identify these jokers the ops will probably have to send a unique message to each subscriber with crafted headers. That can be folded in to a message that would go to the list anyway but the capability isn't baked in to mailman.
I get all this, but there are other methods that should help narrow it down. For example (and I really do mean "example", this might or might not be useful in this case): one of the things I've done is to (1) grab the subscriber list (2) reduce it to domains (3) look up the MXs for every domain -- via a script (4) sort/uniq (5) see if any match the domain that appears to be the culprit. (Sometimes works.) Another approach is to look up the MX's for the culprit and see if those match any on the just-generated list. (Usually doesn't work.) Still another is to map the MX list to IP addresses, sort by address, then grab the IP addresses relevant to the culprit (from A, NS, MX) and see if those are local to any of the ones on the list. (Sometimes works.) All of these are hit-or-miss but I've found that pursuing them usually results in some insight, if not an answer. If nothing else it often allows the "exoneration" of some number of subscriber addresses, which reduces the scope of the problem and may render it tractable via other methods. But to your point, VERP or an equivalent tactic may be the only way to really diagnose/repair some of these. ---rsk
Bill, The NANOG website has been recently updated. The information you are looking for can be found under resources -> Nanog mailing list -> Usage Guidelines. https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ <https://nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/> The email address to contact the mail admins mailman [at] nanog.org <http://nanog.org/> Thanks Brad Raymo NANOG PC
On Apr 21, 2020, at 2:11 PM, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
Howdy,,
How do we contact the nanog mail admins? I looked at https://archive.nanog.org/list and https://archive.nanog.org/list/faq but apparently someone thought it'd be clever to redact all the email addresses from that page. "Questions should be directed to[email protected]."
Thanks, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
participants (12)
-
Bradley Raymo -
Bryan Fields -
Bryan Holloway -
Denys Fedoryshchenko -
Jan Schaumann -
John Osmon -
Mark Andrews -
Neil Hanlon -
Randy Bush -
Rich Kulawiec -
Töma Gavrichenkov -
William Herrin