I'd just like to take a quick opportunity to clear up some misconceptions on the subject of Denial of Service which seem to have been running rampant around here. First off, I am a longer time EFNet user as well as a former EFNet admin, and I have probably been the target of every type of DoS you could imagine at one point or another. You should not mistake cynicism for a particular chat network for apathy about DoS. I also do not believe IRC as a service is any less deserving of protection from attacks, but I do believe it is far more explainable. Secondly, let's not kid ourselves about where DoS comes from. If EFNet has earned one distinction, it is as the source of every major DoS currently in use against the internet. These programs don't write themselves, nor do people learn to use them effectively for no reason. By far the VAST majority of EVERY attack anyone on this list will EVER see *IS* related to IRC, and if you think "la de da I'm just an innocent little network who gets attacked for no reason" then you obviously don't know what your users are doing. The attacks against other targets like yahoo ebay etc are very rare and happen only as a result of packet kids building a network for use against their IRC targets and then realizing there is a whole world out there that doesn't see attacks like this on a regular basis. Let's also get off our delusions of power that help us deal with the powerlessness of being a DoS victim, no one has filed serious litigation against a network for their unintentional involvement in a DoS, and if anyone does it surely won't be EFNet. We all want someone to blame, but the reality of the matter is that the vast majority of attack sources are victims without any real negligence, and the vast majority of attacks are simply not going to be traced back to the person responsible. None of this changes the fundamental need to design networks which are resistant to malicious disruption, but let's at least try to deal with the reality of the situation. One other comment I'll make for the people who take IRC so seriously as to get bent out of shape over these words: It's just IRC. Repeat that to yourself at least 10 times every night. And one last request, unless you really have something to contribute, please don't reply to this on-list. Thanks. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
And one last request, unless you really have something to contribute, please don't reply to this on-list.
This is flamebait. Don't send crap to a huge list and you won't receive replies on it.
Secondly, let's not kid ourselves about where DoS comes from. If EFNet has earned one distinction, it is as the source of every major DoS currently in use against the internet. These programs don't write themselves, nor do people learn to use them effectively for no reason. By far the VAST majority of EVERY attack anyone on this list will EVER see *IS* related to IRC, and if you think "la de da I'm just an innocent little network who gets attacked for no reason" then you obviously don't know what your users are doing. The attacks against other targets like yahoo ebay etc are very rare and happen only as a result of packet kids building a network for use against their IRC targets and then realizing there is a whole world out there that doesn't see attacks like this on a regular basis.
How can you sit here and say this? That's right, these programs don't write themselves, YOU write them/have written them.
None of this changes the fundamental need to design networks which are resistant to malicious disruption, but let's at least try to deal with the reality of the situation.
How is anything in your email constructive/contributing? :)
One other comment I'll make for the people who take IRC so seriously as to get bent out of shape over these words: It's just IRC. Repeat that to yourself at least 10 times every night.
Yeah, like you didn't learn that the hard way. Is it just IRC? Has your involvement in what you call "just IRC" not made it hard for you to find work in any respectable institution?
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Adam Herscher wrote:
And one last request, unless you really have something to contribute, please don't reply to this on-list.
This is flamebait. Don't send crap to a huge list and you won't receive replies on it.
Adam, you were more respectable as a packet kiddie then in your fake efforts to do anything constructive. Obviously you didn't read the "something to contribute" part. I'm sorry I ever brought this up, efnet kiddies can't be contained. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
* Richard A. Steenbergen sez: : > This is flamebait. Don't send crap to a huge list and you won't receive : > replies on it. : : Adam, you were more respectable as a packet kiddie then in your fake Look who's drooli^Wspeaking. To hear you talk about respect makes me want to vomit.
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Jonas Luster wrote:
* Richard A. Steenbergen sez:
: > This is flamebait. Don't send crap to a huge list and you won't receive : > replies on it. : : Adam, you were more respectable as a packet kiddie then in your fake
Look who's drooli^Wspeaking. To hear you talk about respect makes me want to vomit.
Ok, I'm going to lay this out once and for all and from then on you can take your packet warrior shit and stuff it. As has been mentioned on here before, the "0 day elite packet juarez" I'm allegidly responsible for is stream.c. I wrote the core for a former employer to test Cisco equipment for failure modes and improve filtering. A coworker stole and released the code as "stream.c" 6 months later, as "packet juarez". I came forward and admitted I knew the origins of this code, and proceeded to educate people on how to stop it. I'm sorry if your empty braindead little packet warrior obsessed mind can't understand this, but there it is. I've done more to stop DoS then you ever will. You on the other hand seem to be obsessed. I took a quick look through NANOG archives and I havn't been able to find a SINGLE post by you that wasn't content-less and related to DoS. I'd suggest you get a life, the only person obsessed here is you. As for your personal comments against me, I've been refraining from commenting publicly but you have now flapped your mouth once too many times. I have never talked to you or met you to my knowledge, so I'm assuming you're hearing crap from your efnet-obsessed whore wife. All I can say is I feel sorry for you. This is the last time I will engage in a public debate in this subject, so if you would be so kind I'd like you to provide ANY evidence that I have ANY involvement with packeting ANYTHING. What? Nothing? Then sit down and shut up. My appologies to the list for EFNet psychos in general at this point. Again. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Richard A. Steenbergen wrote:
public debate in this subject, so if you would be so kind I'd like you to provide ANY evidence that I have ANY involvement with packeting ANYTHING. What? Nothing? Then sit down and shut up.
My appologies to the list for EFNet psychos in general at this point. Again.
May I politely suggest that those involved in this discussion flame each other off-list, or better yet, put their appendages back in their pants, stop waving them around and attempt to actually carry on a relevant discussion? -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Steven J. Sobol wrote: Heya Steve, Yes, your idea is a good idea. My original mail was not meant to start a flame war. Too bad people can't reply in a strictly proffessional manner, or in exchange, answer in private or not at all. This mailing list should not serve as anyone's battle ground. I got all the replies I needed in private, so please, lets just end this tiresome thread. thank you, --Ariel -- Ariel Biener e-mail: ariel@post.tau.ac.il PGP(6.5.8) public key http://www.tau.ac.il/~ariel/pgp.html
This is flamebait. Don't send crap to a huge list and you won't receive replies on it.
Adam, you were more respectable as a packet kiddie then in your fake efforts to do anything constructive. Obviously you didn't read the "something to contribute" part. I'm sorry I ever brought this up, efnet kiddies can't be contained.
Writing 0-d4Y p4ck3t spLoitZ is hardly constructive, Dick. It's a good thing nobody takes you seriously. *walks away*
participants (5)
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Adam Herscher -
Ariel Biener -
Jonas Luster -
Richard A. Steenbergen -
Steven J. Sobol