If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of ways and, therefore, should be less succeptible to a backhoe digging where it shouldn't be? Or are you looking at other, more secure mediums for the bulk of your traffic?
Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of
only if the train doesn't jump track and rip all that beautiful fiber up for the next half mile :(
ways and, therefore, should be less succeptible to a backhoe digging where it shouldn't be? Or are you looking at other, more secure mediums for the bulk of your traffic?
-- --/ Peter E. Giza || Technical Consultant || ADSmart Corporation fone 508.684.3609 || phax 508.684.3618 || page 800.632.1746 || http://www.adsmart.net /--
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of
I was under the impression that there was one fiber giant that actually owns its own fiber, and that its name is AT&T... Who is Qwest??? Anyone have any stats on how much MCI, Sprint, WCom actually own? Charles ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ Charles Sprickman Internet Channel INCH System Administration Team (212)243-5200 spork@inch.com access@inch.com
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of
I was under the impression that there was one fiber giant that actually owns its own fiber, and that its name is AT&T... Who is Qwest???
All the major carriers, including AT&T, cross lease capacity and swap fibers with each other. It's not unusual to see things like Sprint fiber with Worldcom repeaters, and Worldcom fibers with Sprint repeaters. Carrier incest is alive and well, and no one is excepted, which makes diversity planning of physical plant difficult from a customer perspective. As for who Qwest is, you should check out http://www.qwest.net. Part of their former name might be more familiar, SP Construction Services. (SP as in Southern Pacific) -dorian
Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of
I was under the impression that there was one fiber giant that actually owns its own fiber, and that its name is AT&T... Who is Qwest???
Last name Qwest. First name Johnny. Hangs out with an Arab kid and a pug!
Anyone have any stats on how much MCI, Sprint, WCom actually own?
AT&T has the most extensive network, but also the oldest. They've got a lot of copper in there. MCI leases the majority of their backbone, but does have their own fiber too. Sprint has a national fiber backbone as does WCom. Both are upgrading and closing off their spurrs of which WCom has more. Sprint is only upgrading to OC-48 whereas WCom is going to OC-192. We also have our own backbone between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C. for now. (Watch for the press releases). Qwest is laying a network that will also serve as the backbones for GTE, Frontier and ICG. The Williams Co. (founders of WilTel) is also laying fiber again. Look for them. As to railroad right-of-ways, they will only let you within 30 feet of the tracks, which is still in the ror. It is safer than anywhere else because of the difficulty of getting permits to dig in railroad ror (5+ years here in Washington) even for other utilities. Some idiot with a backhoe can still be way of target though and get you. Derailments and floods are also big problems in rr-ror. The only real protection you have is ringed SONET, however, even in that arrangment some carriers do not have the ability to reroute everything, just the priority stuff. So they'll still have outages. It's all a matter of capacity and what electronics they use. -- Scott Yoneyama Director Starcom (206) 448-4034 (206) 448-4485 fax yone@wolfenet.com "The only way between Canada and the U.S. and all points along the way"
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Scott Yoneyama wrote:
As to railroad right-of-ways, they will only let you within 30 feet of the tracks, which is still in the ror. It is safer than anywhere else because of the difficulty of getting permits to dig in railroad ror (5+ years here in Washington) even for other utilities. Some idiot with a backhoe can still be way of target though and get you. Derailments and floods are also big problems in rr-ror. The only real protection you
I think the fiber Williams Co. has in the ground (most of the old WilTel network) is much safer then fiber laid next to tracks. If people see a sign that says "Fiber cable, do not dig" or "High pressure gas line, do not dig" the latter gets much more attention. Last time I talked to someone as Williams they were saying they never have had a cut along the gas pipeline. Nathan Stratton President, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
Nathan Stratton wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Scott Yoneyama wrote:
I think the fiber Williams Co. has in the ground (most of the old WilTel network) is much safer then fiber laid next to tracks. If people see a sign that says "Fiber cable, do not dig" or "High pressure gas line, do not dig" the latter gets much more attention. Last time I talked to someone as Williams they were saying they never have had a cut along the gas pipeline.
Nathan Stratton President, NetRail,Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 --------------------------------- -------------------------------------- "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
You're right. I forgot about the decomissioned pipelines. Although, you'd be surprised how stupid some of these morons with backhoes are! I remember a major MCI cut along their west coast route a few years ago that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was also fairly close to a gas line. The moral: Redundancy, Redundancy, Redundancy! -- Scott Yoneyama Director Starcom (206) 448-4034 (206) 448-4485 fax yone@wolfenet.com "The only way between Canada and the U.S. and all points along the way"
Some time ago Scott Yoneyama said:
You're right. I forgot about the decomissioned pipelines. Although, you'd be surprised how stupid some of these morons with backhoes are! I remember a major MCI cut along their west coast route a few years ago that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was also fairly close to a gas line.
Is there any compensation to MCI in a situation like this? I would think that multi million dollar fines would make people think a little before they start digging. --Eric
Eric Wieling wrote:
Some time ago Scott Yoneyama said:
You're right. I forgot about the decomissioned pipelines. Although, you'd be surprised how stupid some of these morons with backhoes are! I remember a major MCI cut along their west coast route a few years ago that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was
also fairly close to a gas line.
Is there any compensation to MCI in a situation like this? I would think that multi million dollar fines would make people think a little
before they start digging.
--Eric
The comment from the VP of Operations who came out to brief us on this at the time was something to the effect of: "trust me, we'll be putting this guy out of business and adding a backhoe to our portfolio." -- Scott Yoneyama Director Starcom (206) 448-4034 (206) 448-4485 fax yone@wolfenet.com "The only way between Canada and the U.S. and all points along the way"
Scott Yoneyama writes:
that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was also fairly close to a gas line.
Here in Manhattan, we don't get lines cut by digging, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, most places don't have to worry about cladding fiber to resist rats... Perry
"Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com> wrote:
Here in Manhattan, we don't get lines cut by digging, for obvious reasons.
Don't take that to the bank. On the way to work one morning while some fiber was being routed up Market street in San Francisco to my at-the-time employers office, I chatted with the digging crew and found that they'd just discovered our building's copper bundle almost 2 feet out of position from what the map said and nearly had backhoed a large portion of San Francisco's long distance lines and network connectivity. -george william herbert gherbert@crl.com
I did have a fiber break in the street Manhatten due to a "steam leak". Took out 48 strands. Paul Perry E. Metzger wrote:
Scott Yoneyama writes:
that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was also fairly close to a gas line.
Here in Manhattan, we don't get lines cut by digging, for obvious reasons.
On the other hand, most places don't have to worry about cladding fiber to resist rats...
Perry
-- |-------------------------------------------------------| Paul Trotter 299 Park Avenue Network Architect New York, New York 10171 Union Bank of Switzerland phone: (212) 821-6252 ptrotter@ny.ubs.com fax: (212) 821-5877
Paul Trotter writes:
I did have a fiber break in the street Manhatten due to a "steam leak". Took out 48 strands.
Steam, rats, tunnel fires, steam system explosions, and water main breaks take out lots of fiber in NYC -- probably more that backhoe fade takes out elsewhere. However, backhoe fade itself (though not unheard of) is much rarer, largely because the conduits are deep and the streets are so jam packed that if you make a mistake about where you are it will be obvious Very Very Quickly. Perry
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com> Steam, rats, tunnel fires, steam system explosions, and water main breaks take out lots of fiber in NYC -- probably more that backhoe fade takes out elsewhere. However, backhoe fade itself (though not unheard of) is much rarer, largely because the conduits are deep and the streets are so jam packed that if you make a mistake about where you are it will be obvious Very Very Quickly. Smithsonian Magazine had a fascinating article a few years back about the infrastructure jockeys who plan and install new stuff under the streets of Manhattan. "Jam-packed" might qualify for the understatement of the year award -- there is a lot of stuff down there, including lots (most?) which is incorrectly documented or not documented at all. Worth taking the time to look up if you're the kind of person who geeks out over that sort of thing. ---Rob
Recently there was an article in Scientific American (in the last 6 months) which covered the same ground. It had some really great illustrations of all the tunnels under Manhatten. -dave
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Steam, rats, tunnel fires, steam system explosions, and water main breaks take out lots of fiber in NYC -- probably more that backhoe fade takes out elsewhere. However, backhoe fade itself (though not unheard of) is much rarer, largely because the conduits are deep and the streets are so jam packed that if you make a mistake about where you are it will be obvious Very Very Quickly.
Smithsonian Magazine had a fascinating article a few years back about the infrastructure jockeys who plan and install new stuff under the streets of Manhattan. "Jam-packed" might qualify for the understatement of the year award -- there is a lot of stuff down there, including lots (most?) which is incorrectly documented or not documented at all. Worth taking the time to look up if you're the kind of person who geeks out over that sort of thing.
---Rob
Scott Yoneyama wrote:
Nathan Stratton wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Scott Yoneyama wrote:
I think the fiber Williams Co. has in the ground (most of the old WilTel network) is much safer then fiber laid next to tracks. If people see a sign that says "Fiber cable, do not dig" or "High pressure gas line, do not dig" the latter gets much more attention. Last time I talked to someone as Williams they were saying they never have had a cut along the gas pipeline.
Nathan Stratton President, NetRail,Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 --------------------------------- -------------------------------------- "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
You're right. I forgot about the decomissioned pipelines. Although, you'd be surprised how stupid some of these morons with backhoes are! I remember a major MCI cut along their west coast route a few years ago that took out the entire northwest for 8 hours. The guy was 600 yards away from where his permit allowed him to dig. He stopped when he cut the fiber and shut his hoe down. When they got out there, they found that he was digging right next to train tracks, was inches from cutting a high voltage power line that surely would have killed him, and was also fairly close to a gas line.
The moral: Redundancy, Redundancy, Redundancy!
-- Scott Yoneyama Director Starcom (206) 448-4034 (206) 448-4485 fax yone@wolfenet.com
"The only way between Canada and the U.S. and all points along the way"
Speaking of Wiltel, 1998 marks the end of their non-competition agreement with WorldComm. Wiltels' Martin intends on using more of their "lazy assets" to become a player in a big way once again in the carrier market. -pete
Speaking of Wiltel, 1998 marks the end of their non-competition agreement with WorldComm. Wiltels' Martin intends on using more of their "lazy assets" to become a player in a big way once again in the carrier market.
-pete
Careful, Worldcom owns the rights to the name Wiltel for (I believe) another 7 years. It's The Williams Company. -- Scott Yoneyama Director Starcom (206) 448-4034 (206) 448-4485 fax yone@wolfenet.com "The only way between Canada and the U.S. and all points along the way"
On Thu, Jul 17, 1997 at 10:23:26PM -0400, Peter E. Giza wrote:
Speaking of Wiltel, 1998 marks the end of their non-competition agreement with WorldComm. Wiltels' Martin intends on using more of their "lazy assets" to become a player in a big way once again in the carrier market.
Wow. An engineering-driven carrier. Thank Ghod! Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Unsolicited Commercial Emailers Sued The Suncoast Freenet "People propose, science studies, technology Tampa Bay, Florida conforms." -- Dr. Don Norman +1 813 790 7592
If you're suggesting that Qwest is the only carrier using railroad right of ways I suggest you take a closer look at those little orange posts running along the side of train tracks.. I've seen MCI, Worldcom, AT&T, sprint and others running along the same tracks from Seattle to Portland. nm On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of ways and, therefore, should be less succeptible to a backhoe digging where it shouldn't be? Or are you looking at other, more secure mediums for the bulk of your traffic?
Isn't "SPRINT" an acronym for "Southern Pacific Railroad blah blah"? On July 16, 1997 at 16:18 nikm@ixa.net (Nikos Mouat) wrote:
If you're suggesting that Qwest is the only carrier using railroad right of ways I suggest you take a closer look at those little orange posts running along the side of train tracks.. I've seen MCI, Worldcom, AT&T, sprint and others running along the same tracks from Seattle to Portland.
nm
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of ways and, therefore, should be less succeptible to a backhoe digging where it shouldn't be? Or are you looking at other, more secure mediums for the bulk of your traffic?
-- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.std.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989
At 3:04 PM -0700 7/16/97, Scott Landman wrote:
If fibers being cut is the culprit here, does going with a supplier like Qwest make sense because their fibers are running down railroad right of ways and, therefore, should be less succeptible to a backhoe digging where it shouldn't be?
Ha! There are at least 3 major fiber runs paralleling the old SP (now CalTrain) train tracks from SF to SJ. These tracks run under 280 on the south side of the city, and 280 is being retrofitted. There is lots and LOTS of deep digging going on, in fact I saw a pile of those "don't dig here" orange posts in a scrap pile next to the construction when I was waling around there last week. I remember signs for AT&T, Wiltel and Sprint on the same post, and I think MCI but I'm not positive. One minor backhoe missup and there is a serious outage in the city here. -- Rusty Hodge <rusty@hodge.com>, San Francisco
participants (17)
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Barry Shein -
Charles Sprickman -
David Schiffrin -
Dorian R. Kim -
Eric Wieling -
George Herbert -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Nathan Stratton -
Nikos Mouat -
Paul Trotter -
Perry E. Metzger -
Peter E. Giza -
Peter Giza
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Robert E. Seastrom -
Rusty H. Hodge -
Scott Landman -
Scott Yoneyama