The ads on TV prompted me to look at this. In Section 4 ... `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (c) and (d), the Commission shall not require an incumbent local exchange carrier to-- `(A) provide unbundled access to any network elements used in the provision of any high speed data service, other than those network elements described in section 51.319 of the Commission's regulations (47 C.F.R. 51.319), as in effect on January 1, 1999; or `(B) offer for resale at wholesale rates any high speed data service. `(2) AUTHORITY TO REDUCE ELEMENTS SUBJECT TO REQUIREMENT- Paragraph (1)(A) shall not prohibit the Commission from modifying the regulation referred to in that paragraph to reduce the number of network elements subject to the unbundling requirement, or to forbear from enforcing any portion of that regulation in accordance with the Commission's authority under section 706 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, notwithstanding any limitation on that authority in section 10 of this Act.'. Hmmm .... I don't think this improves competition. -- Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com "... the true value of the Internet is its connectedness ..." -- John W. Stewart III
"Joseph T. Klein" wrote:
Hmmm .... I don't think this improves competition.
Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com
[Joseph, this mini-rant is not directed specifically at you, so please do not take it personally.] I felt compelled to answer this. You work for a company operating in another industry that is doing much the same thing! I don't see Adelphia's cable Internet services in Cleveland being opened to other ISPs. (Yes, I know that Adelphia just entered the market about a year ago, and yes, I know that the cablemodem rollout is far from complete.) Time Warner isn't, either. I heard about them doing it in about a dozen test markets (Central Ohio being one of them) but haven't heard anything since then. To the south of my home, RoadRunner is *huge* in Akron, Canton and Columbus. But it's the same old song and dance... And I don't understand why every single ISP (regardless of size) isn't doing more to stand up for open access. Ultimately, it will become an issue of survival. -- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
Adelphia is not a regulated public utility, that's the difference. If you want to see some serious battle over this issue, check the various Dingell/Tauzin threads at dslreports.com... My basic argument is that the copper is more of a public resource. ATT was granted a monopoly way back when, and the ILECs have certainly recouped all their costs on that particular resource. Adelphia did not inherit their cable plant, and is likely still paying it off. The ILECs can refuse to resell other elements, but the copper really should remain and unbundled element. The best (and most unlikely) remedy I've seen is to put all the copper under control of a neutral third party through which both the ILECs and CLECs would order lines... Charles | Charles Sprickman | Internet Channel | INCH System Administration Team | (212)243-5200 | spork@inch.com | access@inch.com On Sat, 5 May 2001, Steve Sobol wrote:
"Joseph T. Klein" wrote:
Hmmm .... I don't think this improves competition.
Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com
[Joseph, this mini-rant is not directed specifically at you, so please do not take it personally.]
I felt compelled to answer this. You work for a company operating in another industry that is doing much the same thing! I don't see Adelphia's cable Internet services in Cleveland being opened to other ISPs. (Yes, I know that Adelphia just entered the market about a year ago, and yes, I know that the cablemodem rollout is far from complete.) Time Warner isn't, either. I heard about them doing it in about a dozen test markets (Central Ohio being one of them) but haven't heard anything since then. To the south of my home, RoadRunner is *huge* in Akron, Canton and Columbus. But it's the same old song and dance...
And I don't understand why every single ISP (regardless of size) isn't doing more to stand up for open access. Ultimately, it will become an issue of survival.
-- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
Charles Sprickman wrote:
Adelphia is not a regulated public utility, that's the difference.
Since when are cable companies not regulated? (Did they suddenly give up their monopoly positions in the areas they serve?)
The ILECs can refuse to resell other elements, but the copper really should remain and unbundled element. The best (and most unlikely) remedy I've seen is to put all the copper under control of a neutral third party through which both the ILECs and CLECs would order lines...
Certainly would help. Well, maybe. The same problems might exists as exist with ICANN in the TLD world. -- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
Charles Sprickman <spork@inch.com> wrote:
Adelphia is not a regulated public utility, that's the difference.
If you want to see some serious battle over this issue, check the various Dingell/Tauzin threads at dslreports.com...
My basic argument is that the copper is more of a public resource. ATT was granted a monopoly way back when, and the ILECs have certainly recouped all their costs on that particular resource. Adelphia did not inherit their cable plant, and is likely still paying it off.
The ILECs can refuse to resell other elements, but the copper really should remain and unbundled element. The best (and most unlikely) remedy I've seen is to put all the copper under control of a neutral third party through which both the ILECs and CLECs would order lines...
Commonly known as 'structural seperation'... joe
At 05:42 PM 5/5/01, Charles Sprickman wrote:
Adelphia is not a regulated public utility, that's the difference.
Though a different cable company, a letter I received from ATT Broadband's legal counsel might be of interest. I've been charged some 17 cents in various taxes on top of my $49.95/month cable modem bill (I don't subscribe to cable TV, just the data service). So I sent a letter asking why my Internet service is taxed, where the State of Massachusetts does not impose a sales tax on services, and where I thought the cable modem business was outside regulation. The response letter I received indicated that the cable modem business, like EVERYTHING else in the cable business WAS INDEED regulated by the state and local governments. I'm keeping a copy of this letter to use when next ATT claims the local cable commission has no control over the cable modems (next license renewal, I intend to push for open access). I'll post a PDF of this letter on the web somewhere if anyone is interested. Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Senie dts@senie.com Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranth.com
Steve, I will make the standard disclaimer. My opinions are mine and do not reflect the policies or opinions of Adelphia. That said; My personal opinion it for the most part in agreement with your last paragraph. I do not belive that giving anyone a monopoly on the last mile is in the best interest of the public, nor the majority of the network operators. OK, back to the normal NANOG topics .... At 4:46 PM -0400 05-05-2001, Steve Sobol wrote:
"Joseph T. Klein" wrote:
Hmmm .... I don't think this improves competition.
Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com
[Joseph, this mini-rant is not directed specifically at you, so please do not take it personally.]
I felt compelled to answer this. You work for a company operating in another industry that is doing much the same thing! I don't see Adelphia's cable Internet services in Cleveland being opened to other ISPs. (Yes, I know that Adelphia just entered the market about a year ago, and yes, I know that the cablemodem rollout is far from complete.) Time Warner isn't, either. I heard about them doing it in about a dozen test markets (Central Ohio being one of them) but haven't heard anything since then. To the south of my home, RoadRunner is *huge* in Akron, Canton and Columbus. But it's the same old song and dance...
And I don't understand why every single ISP (regardless of size) isn't doing more to stand up for open access. Ultimately, it will become an issue of survival.
-- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
-- Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com "... the true value of the Internet is its connectedness ..." -- John W. Stewart III
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Steve Sobol said:
"Joseph T. Klein" wrote:
Hmmm .... I don't think this improves competition.
Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com
[Joseph, this mini-rant is not directed specifically at you, so please do not take it personally.]
I felt compelled to answer this. You work for a company operating in another industry that is doing much the same thing! I don't see Adelphia's cable Internet services in Cleveland being opened to other ISPs.
There are the following truths: 1) Telco's are regulated under one body of law/FCC regulation. 2) Cable Co's are regulated under an entirely different set, with different basis in history & law. 3) The current law requires the telcos to rent UNE's {pieces, such as the local loop copper...} to CLEC's. This was part of the 96 Telecom Act. When the Bells complied withabuncha rules, they'd get free rein in the LD business. 4) There is no such law such as the 96 Act applying to cable data. 5) The Bells especially SWB (who now controls a massive amount of territory -- Califunny to Ohio) are whining and crying "It's not fair; Johnny Cox gets to play outside after dark, why can't I go along?" 6) Their solution is to remove ALL requirements that they must rent UNE's; that they have to meet any requirements before being allowed into LD, and to boot - an exemption from FCC regulation, period. 7) The Bells have tried and failed to get state PSC's to vote their way. They have tried in the courts, and failed. They have tried to get the FCC to do it their way, and failed again. 8) They are NOW busy with their new shill, a certain Hillcritter from ForestGumpville, trying yet again in the form of a bill to accomplish same. They have paid him very well^H^H^H rather their PAC's have donated lotsa ""soft money"..... 9) Note the Bell/ForestGump solution is MORE monopoly, by denying facilities to any/all CLEC's; It's NOT to require the cable co's to rent cabledata to CLECish folks. Now My Opinion: While I don't like 4); there is no way that 6) solves the issue; it just helps restore the One Bell Monopoly dream, now free of many regulatory constraints traded away in 96. YMMV, but I do not look forward to a new OBM. I'm old enough to recall the pre-84 one. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Also sprach Steve Sobol
I felt compelled to answer this. You work for a company operating in another industry that is doing much the same thing! I don't see Adelphia's cable Internet services in Cleveland being opened to other ISPs. (Yes, I know that Adelphia just entered the market about a year ago, and yes, I know that the cablemodem rollout is far from complete.) Time Warner isn't, either. I heard about them doing it in about a dozen test markets (Central Ohio being one of them) but haven't heard anything since then. To the south of my home, RoadRunner is *huge* in Akron, Canton and Columbus. But it's the same old song and dance...
I've said many times, in many fora... I'll be the first to stand up for Open Access on cable plants. Indeed, we (IgLou) were quite active in trying to get the city of Louisville Board of Alderman to at least *act* like they have a backbone (even though natives know they don't have one at all) and try to enforce Open Access on TKR^WIntermedia^WInsight (I proly missed quite a few there, and I know there were some that predated TKR), alas, the city decided that they didn't real care about locally owned and operated businesses, doing the right thing, or even showing some semblance of intelligence regarding the cable franchise. Consequently, they didn't even *attempt* to push the Open Access issue, and settled for a $5 credit to customers for *years* of illegally including a property tax fee on cable bills. Oh man...and my wife is watching the news downstairs and just informed me that the Louisville Board of Alderman managed to make themselves look like total idiots yet again. For those of you (I would assume most) that aren't familiar with the situation here. After Derby (I assume most of you realize that the Kentucky Derby was today), traditionally, there has been a massive cruising problem on Broadway from downtown Louisville out to the west end (predominantly african american area of town). So the Board decided to hold hip-hop concerts to try to draw people to the concerts to avoid the cruising. Apparently, they needed ot have 23,000 people come to the concerts between the two nights to break even...they ended up with something like 2800 people there between the two nights. So what does this have to do with nanog? Well...ok...its a stretch, but cablecos are "regulated" (if you can call it that) by local franchises almost exclusively. At least in the state of KY, the PSC does *NO* regulation over cablecos. The FCC only does very basic regulation (primarily content regulation as I understand it). And the local franchises are "regulated" by people like the Board of Alderman here in Louisville that don't have a *clue* about what's going on with stuff like this, or about what the significance is. Even worse, though, is that they don't *care*, even when its pointed out to them! This makes the Open Access fight for cable very hard to nigh on impossible. The good news, however, is that if we fight the fight to get real openness on telco networks (not the crap that the RBOCs like BellSouth are trying to pull right now), then the cable networks will be moot before too long. Look at the history of computing and computer networking...the more open solution wins, almost without fail. Open up the telco networks, and the cable networks will loose out and will cease to be relevent. The RBOCs seem to think, however, that two wrongs make a right. The prevailing thought being something like, "Sure, openness is good, but if the cablecos aren't going to be open, then its bad for us to be open." Uh...huh? So, in summary, I agree with you that cable networks should be open as well. The bad news is that its a fight that we (independent ISPs) won't win because we don't have legal and regulatory leverage. The good news is that we *can* win the fight for real open access on telco networks if we organize and fight. The better news is that winning the fight for real open access on telcos makes the fight for open access on cablecos moot.
And I don't understand why every single ISP (regardless of size) isn't doing more to stand up for open access. Ultimately, it will become an issue of survival.
Check out http://war.iglou.com Join or start your state ISP Association or one of the national ones like The American ISP Association (http://www.aispa.org). -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
Look at the history of computing and computer networking...the more open solution wins, almost without fail. Open up the telco networks, and the cable networks will loose out and will cease to be relevent.
The RBOCs seem to think, however, that two wrongs make a right. The prevailing thought being something like, "Sure, openness is good, but if the cablecos aren't going to be open, then its bad for us to be open."
Uh...huh?
You've got it wrong. It's "They don't have to do it; why should we?"
So, in summary, I agree with you that cable networks should be open as well. The bad news is that its a fight that we (independent ISPs) won't win because we don't have legal and regulatory leverage.
But it's a fight that others can fight too. Big guys. AOL probably won't (AOL==Time Warner, remember), but Earthlink and MSN might. EarthlinkMindspringOneMainSprint of BORG *is* aligned with Sprint, but Sprint isn't an ILEC in the vast majority of towns across the USA. Everyone should be fighting for this, IMHO. Little ISPs, big-name nationwide retail providers, and backbones that aren't associated with an ILEC. That means UUNet and Intermedia, for example. MCI isn't an ILEC in most places that I know of, either. So why aren't we fighting?
The good news is that we *can* win the fight for real open access on telco networks if we organize and fight.
Yup!
And I don't understand why every single ISP (regardless of size) isn't doing more to stand up for open access. Ultimately, it will become an issue of survival.
Check out http://war.iglou.com
Join or start your state ISP Association or one of the national ones like The American ISP Association (http://www.aispa.org).
-- Tired of Earthlink? Get JustTheNet! Nationwide Dialup, ISDN, DSL, ATM, Frame Relay, T-1, T-3, and more. EARTHLINK AMNESTY PROGRAM: Buy a year, get two months free More info coming soon to http://JustThe.net, or e-mail me!
Also sprach Steve Sobol
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
Look at the history of computing and computer networking...the more open solution wins, almost without fail. Open up the telco networks, and the cable networks will loose out and will cease to be relevent.
The RBOCs seem to think, however, that two wrongs make a right. The prevailing thought being something like, "Sure, openness is good, but if the cablecos aren't going to be open, then its bad for us to be open."
Uh...huh?
You've got it wrong. It's "They don't have to do it; why should we?"
But they'll give lip service that open networks are good...so the two arguments that we're attributing to RBOCs boil down to be the same thing...just stated differently.
But it's a fight that others can fight too. Big guys. AOL probably won't (AOL==Time Warner, remember), but Earthlink and MSN might.
EarthlinkMindspringOneMainSprint of BORG *is* aligned with Sprint, but Sprint isn't an ILEC in the vast majority of towns across the USA.
Everyone should be fighting for this, IMHO. Little ISPs, big-name nationwide
retail providers, and backbones that aren't associated with an ILEC. That means UUNet and Intermedia, for example. MCI isn't an ILEC in most places that I know of, either.
So why aren't we fighting?
We are...though its kinda low grade since the bigger current fight is to maintain the current openness on the RBOC networks since they seem to have the FCC and at least some Representatives pretty much on their payroll, and are doing their best to embrace and extend their monopoly out into broadband. My experiences are in dealing with BellSouth, and to be quite blunt, I can't see why anyone would want to acknowledge working for such a completely unethical company. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456
participants (7)
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Charles Sprickman -
Daniel Senie -
David Lesher -
Jeff Mcadams -
Joe McGuckin -
Joseph T. Klein -
Steve Sobol