*Mel Beckman*mel at beckman.org <mailto:nanog%40nanog.org?Subject=Re%3A%20Network%20visibility&In-Reply-To=%3C3F9A10AF-090C-410A-96BC-CEF1B0371B3C%40beckman.org%3E> wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
This is just so completely wrong as to be ludicrous. First of all, the IMP was the box. Computers connected using the protocols specified in BBN Report 1822 (https://walden-family.com/impcode/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf) NCP was alternately referred to as the Network Control PROGRAM and the Network Control Protocol. It essentially played the role of TCP, managing pairs of simplex connections. Routing was completely dynamic - that was the whole point of the IMP software. And routing did NOT require email addresses - those operated much further up the protocol stack. Perhaps you're confusing this with UUCP mail addressing ("bang" paths). Or possibly BITNET or FidoNet - which I believe also were source routed (but memory fails on that. re.
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :) You know, there are people on this list who were back there in 1969, and actually wrote some of that code - so you might want to stop spouting nonsense. (Not me, I was a user, starting in 1971, didn't get to BBN until 1985 - when we were still dealing with stragglers who didn't quite manage to cutover to TCP/IP on the Flag Day.)
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating. Mike On 10/20/21 2:16 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
*Mel Beckman*mel at beckman.org <mailto:nanog%40nanog.org?Subject=Re%3A%20Network%20visibility&In-Reply-To=%3C3F9A10AF-090C-410A-96BC-CEF1B0371B3C%40beckman.org%3E> wrote:
Mark,
Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message.
This is just so completely wrong as to be ludicrous.
First of all, the IMP was the box. Computers connected using the protocols specified in BBN Report 1822 (https://walden-family.com/impcode/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf)
NCP was alternately referred to as the Network Control PROGRAM and the Network Control Protocol. It essentially played the role of TCP, managing pairs of simplex connections.
Routing was completely dynamic - that was the whole point of the IMP software. And routing did NOT require email addresses - those operated much further up the protocol stack.
Perhaps you're confusing this with UUCP mail addressing ("bang" paths). Or possibly BITNET or FidoNet - which I believe also were source routed (but memory fails on that.
re.
Even so, the Internet as a platform open to anyone didn’t start until 1992. I know you joined late, in 1999, so you probably missed out on this history. :) You know, there are people on this list who were back there in 1969, and actually wrote some of that code - so you might want to stop spouting nonsense. (Not me, I was a user, starting in 1971, didn't get to BBN until 1985 - when we were still dealing with stragglers who didn't quite manage to cutover to TCP/IP on the Flag Day.)
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
On 10/20/21 3:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating.
+10 to Where Wizards Stay Up Late. I recently re-acquired (multiple copies of) it. (Multiple because I wanted the same edition that I couldn't locate after multiple moves.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[changed to a more appropriate subject] On 10/20/21 3:52 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 10/20/21 3:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating.
+10 to Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
I recently re-acquired (multiple copies of) it. (Multiple because I wanted the same edition that I couldn't locate after multiple moves.)
One of the things about the book was that it finally confirmed for me what I had heard but thought might be apocryphal which was that one of my co-workers at Cisco (Charlie Klein) was the first one to receive a packet on ARPAnet. I guess it sent an "l" and then immediately crashed. They fixed the problem and the next time they got "login:". It also casts shade on another early well known person which gives me some amount of schadenfreude. Mike
On Oct 21, 2021, at 2:37 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
[changed to a more appropriate subject]
On 10/20/21 3:52 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 10/20/21 3:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating.
+10 to Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
I recently re-acquired (multiple copies of) it. (Multiple because I wanted the same edition that I couldn't locate after multiple moves.)
One of the things about the book was that it finally confirmed for me what I had heard but thought might be apocryphal which was that one of my co-workers at Cisco (Charlie Klein) was the first one to receive a packet on ARPAnet. I guess it sent an "l" and then immediately crashed. They fixed the problem and the next time they got "login:". It also casts shade on another early well known person which gives me some amount of schadenfreude.
It was “LO”, and Mr. Kline sent the packets, but you got it essentially right. Source: https://uclaconnectionlab.org/internet-museum/ The last picture confirms Mr. Kline sent the LO and crashed the WHOLE INTERENT (FSVO “Internet”) just a couple seconds after it started. I wonder if he will ever live it down. :-) Apparently at the time it was not that big a deal. He did the test at 10:30 PM. He did not call and wake anyone up, everyone had to read about it in the notes the next day. My understanding is that really is IMP No. 1. Someone found it in the “to be scrapped” pile & rescued it, then they closed off room 3420 & made it a micro-museum. I believe the teletype is not the original, but is a real ASR-33. The Sigma 7 is a prop, I believe. Anyone can visit it for free (other than parking, which is expensive near UCLA!). If you are near UClA, you should stop by. To be honest, it is both overwhelming and underwhelming. Overwhelming because of what it was and represents. Underwhelming because it is a tiny classroom with a half-glass locked door and a plaque in the basement of the mathematics department at a public university that looks like it was built in the 40s. I went to UCLA for mathematics, and spent quite a bit of time in that hallway without even realizing what that room was. (It was not a museum at the time.) -- TTFN, patrick
On 10/21/21 11:52 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 2:37 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
[changed to a more appropriate subject]
On 10/20/21 3:52 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 10/20/21 3:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating. +10 to Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
I recently re-acquired (multiple copies of) it. (Multiple because I wanted the same edition that I couldn't locate after multiple moves.)
One of the things about the book was that it finally confirmed for me what I had heard but thought might be apocryphal which was that one of my co-workers at Cisco (Charlie Klein) was the first one to receive a packet on ARPAnet. I guess it sent an "l" and then immediately crashed. They fixed the problem and the next time they got "login:". It also casts shade on another early well known person which gives me some amount of schadenfreude. It was “LO”, and Mr. Kline sent the packets, but you got it essentially right.
Source: https://uclaconnectionlab.org/internet-museum/
The last picture confirms Mr. Kline sent the LO and crashed the WHOLE INTERENT (FSVO “Internet”) just a couple seconds after it started. I wonder if he will ever live it down. :-) Apparently at the time it was not that big a deal. He did the test at 10:30 PM. He did not call and wake anyone up, everyone had to read about it in the notes the next day.
My understanding is that really is IMP No. 1. Someone found it in the “to be scrapped” pile & rescued it, then they closed off room 3420 & made it a micro-museum. I believe the teletype is not the original, but is a real ASR-33. The Sigma 7 is a prop, I believe.
Anyone can visit it for free (other than parking, which is expensive near UCLA!). If you are near UClA, you should stop by. To be honest, it is both overwhelming and underwhelming. Overwhelming because of what it was and represents. Underwhelming because it is a tiny classroom with a half-glass locked door and a plaque in the basement of the mathematics department at a public university that looks like it was built in the 40s. I went to UCLA for mathematics, and spent quite a bit of time in that hallway without even realizing what that room was. (It was not a museum at the time.)
The destination was Stanford, iirc. I've always thought it was pretty odd that BBN essentially threw the IMP over the wall clear to the west coast. You would think they'd want something a lot closer to Boston to make for easier debugging. But I knew that I should have looked up the details :) Mike
It appears that Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> said:
My understanding is that really is IMP No. 1. Someone found it in the “to be scrapped” pile & rescued it, then they closed off room 3420 & made it a micro-museum. I believe the teletype is not the original, but is a real ASR-33. The Sigma 7 is a prop, I believe.
The IMP is real, as are some of the notebooks. Everything else is a prop. The terminal isn't even a model 33, it's a model 32 which says ITT in large letters so you know it was retired from Telex service, not computing. But it's definitely worth a visit, particularly if Len Kleinrock is around to give his spiel about "LO" the first message. https://uclaconnectionlab.org/internet-museum/ R's, John
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 12:15 PM John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
But it's definitely worth a visit, particularly if Len Kleinrock is around to give his spiel about "LO" the first message.
Hi John, Is it currently possible to visit? The web page doesn't say anything and Google Maps says the building is closed. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
On Oct 21, 2021, at 12:47 PM, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 12:15 PM John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
But it's definitely worth a visit, particularly if Len Kleinrock is around to give his spiel about "LO" the first message.
Hi John,
Is it currently possible to visit? The web page doesn't say anything and Google Maps says the building is closed.
Boelter Hall (at UCLA, where the IMP is) is open now. This fall we largely do in-person teaching, the campus is full of students and visitors. Lixia
On 21/10/2021 21:52, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Oct 21, 2021, at 2:37 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
[changed to a more appropriate subject]
On 10/20/21 3:52 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 10/20/21 3:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Just as an interesting aside if you're interested in the history of networking, When Wizards Stayed Up Late is quite elucidating.
+10 to Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
I recently re-acquired (multiple copies of) it. (Multiple because I wanted the same edition that I couldn't locate after multiple moves.)
One of the things about the book was that it finally confirmed for me what I had heard but thought might be apocryphal which was that one of my co-workers at Cisco (Charlie Klein) was the first one to receive a packet on ARPAnet. I guess it sent an "l" and then immediately crashed. They fixed the problem and the next time they got "login:". It also casts shade on another early well known person which gives me some amount of schadenfreude.
It was “LO”, and Mr. Kline sent the packets, but you got it essentially right.
Source: https://uclaconnectionlab.org/internet-museum/
The last picture confirms Mr. Kline sent the LO and crashed the WHOLE INTERENT (FSVO “Internet”) just a couple seconds after it started.
Reminds me of the time the entire Swift network crashed when the capital of Ecuador (Quito) was added to the network. :-) -Hank
participants (8)
-
Grant Taylor -
Hank Nussbacher -
John Levine -
Lixia Zhang -
Michael Thomas -
Miles Fidelman -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
William Herrin