At 09:07 PM 10/7/98 -0400, Steven J. Sobol wrote:
On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 08:31:28PM -0400, chrism@postino.raremedium.com wrote:
corportate lawyer sent a note to me (with copy to my company's legal counsel) that he found my "numerous notes" to be "offensive and harassing".
Heh. Point him to the Bill of Rights. :P
IANAL, but if they can prove anything he asserted as factual is not true - and he knew that when he posted - can't they sue him in civil court? Or something like that?
Of course, that's pretty hard to prove, but hey, OJ got off. :)
TTFN, patrick
I Am Not An Isp www.ianai.net "Think of it as evolution in action." - Niven & Pournelle
I believe you are talking about Libel, and if I recall, that requires the following tests be met: 1. Malice of intent 2. Knowledgeable untruth If either is missing, I believe libel cannot be prosecuted. IANAL either. Owen
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Owen DeLong wrote:
I believe you are talking about Libel, and if I recall, that requires the following tests be met:
1. Malice of intent 2. Knowledgeable untruth
If either is missing, I believe libel cannot be prosecuted.
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
IANAL either.
Owen
<> Nathan Stratton Telecom & ISP Consulting www.robotics.net nathan@robotics.net -- "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength." - Psalm 33:16
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Nathan Stratton wrote:
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
Agreed. However, the main diff. here is that you were a NetRail founder/exec, while we are a current customer of Exodus. Such treatment of *customers* is truly despicable, and really does stray far from the responsive and courteous support we SHOULD be subjected to...
On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:41:03AM -0400, Adam Rothschild wrote:
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Nathan Stratton wrote:
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
Agreed.
However, the main diff. here is that you were a NetRail founder/exec, while we are a current customer of Exodus. Such treatment of *customers* is truly despicable, and really does stray far from the responsive and courteous support we SHOULD be subjected to...
There is a simple solution to this - become an ex-customer. Any firm which assaults your sensibilities is one you should not be affiliated with. Period. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization.
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Adam Rothschild wrote:
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Nathan Stratton wrote:
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
Agreed.
However, the main diff. here is that you were a NetRail founder/exec, while we are a current customer of Exodus. Such treatment of *customers* is truly despicable, and really does stray far from the responsive and courteous support we SHOULD be subjected to...
True, so why not ditch them as a transit provider?
<> Nathan Stratton Telecom & ISP Consulting www.robotics.net nathan@robotics.net -- "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength." - Psalm 33:16
On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:03:18AM -0400, Nathan Stratton wrote:
while we are a current customer of Exodus. Such treatment of *customers* is truly despicable, and really does stray far from the responsive and courteous support we SHOULD be subjected to...
True, so why not ditch them as a transit provider?
Nathan, are you following the "renumber my ip addresses" thread, elsewhere on the list? :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Buy copies of The New Hackers Dictionary. The Suncoast Freenet Give them to all your friends. Tampa Bay, Florida http://www.ccil.org/jargon/ +1 813 790 7592
My recommendation is that we kill this part of the thread before someone gets sued for slander and defamation and harrassment. This is serious advice and I really sincerely hope you take it. Henry R. Linneweh Nathan Stratton wrote:
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Owen DeLong wrote:
I believe you are talking about Libel, and if I recall, that requires the following tests be met:
1. Malice of intent 2. Knowledgeable untruth
If either is missing, I believe libel cannot be prosecuted.
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
IANAL either.
Owen
<> Nathan Stratton Telecom & ISP Consulting www.robotics.net nathan@robotics.net -- "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength." - Psalm 33:16
-- ¢4i1å
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Henry Linneweh wrote:
My recommendation is that we kill this part of the thread before someone gets sued for slander and defamation and harrassment. This is serious advice and I really sincerely hope you take it.
I, too, suggest we drop this, as it's leading nowhere productive. The problems with Exodus remain (surprise, surprise!), and we have not heard a peep out of them (besides that silly, poorly informed, and presumably bored attorney, that is). We have complained all the way up to the CEO (Ellen Hancock), to no avail. Simply amazing.
:: Nathan Stratton writes ::
I believe you are talking about Libel, and if I recall, that requires the following tests be met:
1. Malice of intent 2. Knowledgeable untruth
If either is missing, I believe libel cannot be prosecuted.
Yep, that was what NetRail was missing with me. It is very hard to shut someone up who is telling the truth. Exodus should get together with NetRail, at least their legal people sound like a match.
No. IANAL, but I did a fair amount of research on this when the director of computing services at the University I attended claimed I had actionably libeled one of his admins. (He was wrong.) (Don't ask.) The person who is allegedly the victim of libel never has to prove that the allegedly libelous statement is false to prevail. (Otherwise, it would be easy to avoid libel. I could, for example, accuse anyone I wanted of, say, being a child molestor. How would they prove that they never molested any child?) In many cases, truth is an absolute defense. That is, in many cases, if I say something about you, and you sue me for libel, and I prove it's true, then you lose. That's a fundamental difference, because it means that in cases where there is no proof as to truth or falsity, it can still be actionable libel. Malice of intent is also not generally required. For a public figure (that is, a case when the alleged victim is a public figure within the forum where the libel allegedly occurred), the plaintiff must prove that the statement was defamatory (this is independant of truth or falsity), and that it was made with a reckless disregard for the truth. For a non-public figure, the standards for much more complicated, and, in some such cases, a completely true statement can be actionally libelous. Public figure is a local matter, though. If I make statements about, say, Nathan Stratton (since I'm following up to his message) on the evening news on TV, the standard is probably going to be the non-public-figure standard. But if I make those statements on this list, where Nathan is relatively well known, it's going to be the public figure standard. Anyway, I'll shut-up since you can't configure your routers with this. My point is this: Libel/Slander law is complicated and non-obvious. Don't go libel someone based on advice from NANOG. - Brett (brettf@netcom.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ... Coming soon to a | Brett Frankenberger .sig near you ... a Humorous Quote ... | brettf@netcom.com
During the past week, several of you wrote:
(lots of comments and rants about Exodus)
Now... I have started a mailing list for Exodus discussion. Information, rants, problems, service issues, technical announcements, network performance issues, peering agreements/issues, etc... If you are now or have been or even plan to be an Exodus customer, please subscribe by sending a message to: exodus-request@garden.net with "subscribe" in the body or visit this web page: http://www.garden.net:81/guest/RemoteListSummary/Exodus Hopefully this will do two things: 1. End this thread for good. 2. Provide a useful resource and acceptable forum for people to OPENLY discuss Exodus. Because of this, subscription is limited to people who do not have any vested interest in Exodus. No Exodus employees, officers, directors, stockholders, or counsel please. To the aforementioned group, we don't know who you are, but remember that this is an OPEN and private forum. Your subscription implies your complete agreement to hold harmless all list members for any discussion that may take place. -Robert Robert Boyle Server Co-location, Garden Networks Internet Access, 50 Diller Ave Development & Consulting Newton, NJ 07860 (973)300-9211 Ext.103 8AM-8PM Mon-Fri EST http://www.garden.net Quality Internet Connectivity Nationwide
participants (8)
-
Adam Rothschild -
Brett Frankenberger -
Henry Linneweh -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Karl Denninger -
Nathan Stratton -
owen＠DeLong.SJ.CA.US -
Robert Boyle