Dealing with ARIN.. my experiences & tips
Just passing on my experience with ARIN and a few tips I've found to make my life easier. I used to handle allocations for a large cable provider, and was requesting along the lines of 1-2 /17s every three months. Flame away if you wish, but this is what worked for me. 1) Keep records of your IP allocations and assignments (and not just with SWIP, you need utilization numbers). I know this is a royal pain in the rear end, and it's not always easy to do with customers. But if you don't know how your customers are using their assigned space, you really can't effectively plan for their future growth. They should have to show you their projected space usage before receiving an initial assignment. They should have to justify 80% usage to you before receiving another assignment. In practice, I realize this isn't always easy. But keeping records is not just for ARIN's benefit, it is for yours as well. I had a database that pulled the statistics per subnet. When application time came, I put it into the pretty format that ARIN wanted (POP - block - total IPs - used IPs - unused IPs - utilization % etc.) and sent it in with my request. Yes, it made the size of my application huge with two dozen POPs and scores of blocks each. Yes, it took some time to compile, even though I was pulling from a database. But this is the information ARIN looks at in excruciating detail. Scrimp on this, and they will squawk. Guaranteed. 2) If you commit a 'violation', ie. one of your blocks was less than the required utilization before assigning another, explain. If you are able to justify, even if you simply say 'I messed up', for the most part they will accept that. I have made mistakes in allocations, and have not been denied additional space because of them. I just had to be very sure I explained clearly (and up-front in the initial request !) what the mistake was and what I was doing to fix it. In most cases, it was simply waiting until the first allocation filled, then using the second. 3) You have to request every three months or so. I'm sorry Jeff M., but there's really no way around this, no matter how inefficient it may seem. Their policy is to give allocations sufficient for three months' worth of usage, based on past growth. If your growth increases greatly, you may need to request after two months (yes, I've done it, and I'm sure many others have too). If you're in the midst of renumbering, and utilization is increasing, you may have to request again after two months, or even less. It takes time to make up the requests. It's even more frustrating having to do it after two months instead of three. But in the case of increased utilization, you may just have demonstrated a need for a larger IP block. Suffer a bit, and you will eventually reap the rewards. Jeff, you've demonstrated that you are doing the Right Thing. Your utilization is good and your practices seem well in-line with best practices. ARIN will recognize this. Perhaps you don't think they do right now, but if you were not in-line, they wouldn't have given you any allocation at all. 4) DO NOT TRY TO BEND THEIR RULES. This should actually be Rule #1. I made sure I put this in big, bold letters in the document I gave to my successor. ARIN's rules are there and, unlike gravity in The Matrix, are not meant to be broken. You can ask until your blue in the face for six months' worth of IP space, or whatever else you like, but you won't get it. Unfortunately this is one of those things that we all just have to accept. They may cut you a little bit of slack to help recover from a mistake, but that's it. Their rules are their rules. If you want to protest them, the person who is doing your allocation isn't the right person to protest to. 5) See Rule #4. If they give you an allocation that you don't agree with, and they won't budge, accept it. Jeff M., I see your point that going back to ARIN after renumbering half of the network is a tad on the ridiculous side. Unfortunately there are times when you just have to take your lumps and do what they want you to do. I find it unlikely that they will deny you the second half of an allocation once you've renumbered into the first half, demonstrated good block usage percentage, and promised your firstborn that you'll give the original allocation back. :) 6) What Jon L. said was true. It does take a bit of practice in dealing with ARIN and giving them exactly the information they need, in the format they want it. Your first few dealings with them may result in multiple clarification requests. Take it as a learning experience, and be sure to include the information they ask for in the next request. 7) And finally.. ARIN are nice people. Really ! They're not big red devils with flaming pitchforks just waiting to stab you in the hiney at every chance they get. Work with them and they will work with you. I actually started to *enjoy* my tri-montly interactions with them after a while, if you can believe that. :) Andrea Abrahamsen Software Engineer, Intelligent Network Services Cisco Systems
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously. What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
T3 goes 400 feet on coax. Mike (meuon) Harrison wrote:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
I don't know of anyone who runs DS-3's across their car park. :-) Cheers, Neil.
"Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> writes:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
The textbook limit is 450' for 735 cable. I've had poor luck pushing the limit, and don't know offhand if using some other flavor of 75 ohm cable buys you anything. Were I in your position, I'd have glass pulled and use a coax to fiber media converter such as http://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?NODE=OND68947, http://www.versitron.com/DS3T3.html, or http://www.rad-direct.com/DATASHEET/FOM-T3.pdf (the latter of which I've used personally) on each end. No, it's not the cheap way to do it, but it eliminates ground loops and other such nastiness that can ruin your whole day. ---Rob
On 17 Apr 2003, Robert E. Seastrom wrote:
"Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> writes:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
The textbook limit is 450' for 735 cable. I've had poor luck pushing the limit, and don't know offhand if using some other flavor of 75 ohm cable buys you anything.
Were I in your position, I'd have glass pulled and use a coax to fiber media converter such as http://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?NODE=OND68947,
Or a wireless/microwave solution of course... Steve
http://www.versitron.com/DS3T3.html, or http://www.rad-direct.com/DATASHEET/FOM-T3.pdf (the latter of which I've used personally) on each end. No, it's not the cheap way to do it, but it eliminates ground loops and other such nastiness that can ruin your whole day.
---Rob
Definately. You most emphatically do NOT want copper going across your parking lot. Besides the danger from lightning strikes and other electrostatic discharges you run the risk of ground potentials differing significantly. You could wind up with a significant amount of current flowing across the coax just to balance building grounds. (This is why telcos insist on a single ground point and have that point connected to an array of ground rods driven deep in the ground.) Tim -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Robert E. Seastrom Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:51 To: Mike (meuon) Harrison Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: DS3 Coax.. "Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> writes:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
The textbook limit is 450' for 735 cable. I've had poor luck pushing the limit, and don't know offhand if using some other flavor of 75 ohm cable buys you anything. Were I in your position, I'd have glass pulled and use a coax to fiber media converter such as http://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?NODE=OND68947, http://www.versitron.com/DS3T3.html, or http://www.rad-direct.com/DATASHEET/FOM-T3.pdf (the latter of which I've used personally) on each end. No, it's not the cheap way to do it, but it eliminates ground loops and other such nastiness that can ruin your whole day. ---Rob
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
Definately.
You most emphatically do NOT want copper going across your parking lot. Besides the danger from lightning strikes and other electrostatic discharges you run the risk of ground potentials differing significantly. You could wind up with a significant amount of current flowing across the coax just to balance building grounds. (This is why telcos insist on a single ground point and have that point connected to an array of ground rods driven deep in the ground.)
Agreed. Fiber is Your Friend [tm]. Ground loops and potential differences will not only have you ripping your hair out, but you stand to lose DS-3 ports. Now some guy told me that such costs a bit more than the RS-232 & Ethernet ports I regularly see die, but that's likely just a rumor. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Makes sense but... Before fiber and ADMs were so common, in the days of buried coax for DS-3s (between COs and for the occassional large customer), coax was obviously being used for inter-building connectivity. How exactly did the topology differ? Besides fiber, which eliminates the issue of ground loops and such altogether, how did the RBOCs actually deal with this problem when they didn't have fiber in the ground? I presume there's an element/architecture that can be used safely. Mike alluded to a 'GID' per Sprint. Anyone have a reference/source for this device? -jr * Timothy R. McKee <tim@baseworx.net> [20030419 18:13]:
Definately.
You most emphatically do NOT want copper going across your parking lot. Besides the danger from lightning strikes and other electrostatic discharges you run the risk of ground potentials differing significantly. You could wind up with a significant amount of current flowing across the coax just to balance building grounds. (This is why telcos insist on a single ground point and have that point connected to an array of ground rods driven deep in the ground.)
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Robert E. Seastrom Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:51 To: Mike (meuon) Harrison Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: DS3 Coax..
"Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> writes:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
The textbook limit is 450' for 735 cable. I've had poor luck pushing the limit, and don't know offhand if using some other flavor of 75 ohm cable buys you anything.
Were I in your position, I'd have glass pulled and use a coax to fiber media converter such as http://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?NODE=OND68947, http://www.versitron.com/DS3T3.html, or http://www.rad-direct.com/DATASHEET/FOM-T3.pdf (the latter of which I've used personally) on each end. No, it's not the cheap way to do it, but it eliminates ground loops and other such nastiness that can ruin your whole day.
---Rob
-- ---- Josh Richards <jrichard@{ geekresearch.com, cubicle.net, digitalwest.net }> Digital West Networks, Inc - San Luis Obispo, CA KG6CYK - IP/Unix/telecom/knowledge/coffee/security/crypto/business/geek
On Tue 22 Apr 2003 (09:32 -0700), Josh Richards wrote:
Makes sense but...
Before fiber and ADMs were so common, in the days of buried coax for DS-3s (between COs and for the occassional large customer), coax was obviously being used for inter-building connectivity.
How exactly did the topology differ? Besides fiber, which eliminates the issue of ground loops and such altogether, how did the RBOCs actually deal with this problem when they didn't have fiber in the ground?
I presume there's an element/architecture that can be used safely. Mike alluded to a 'GID' per Sprint. Anyone have a reference/source for this device?
One easy way would be to use baluns and go from 120 ohm balanced on RJ45s in the buildings to 75 ohm coax between buildings. Or you can probably find a supplier of 75 ohm 1::1 transformers suitable for data traffic. Both should provide isolation and allow a floating ground. -- Jim Segrave jes@nl.demon.net
Thus spake "Josh Richards" <jrichard@cubicle.net>
Before fiber and ADMs were so common, in the days of buried coax for DS-3s (between COs and for the occassional large customer), coax was obviously being used for inter-building connectivity.
How exactly did the topology differ? Besides fiber, which eliminates the issue of ground loops and such altogether, how did the RBOCs actually deal with this problem when they didn't have fiber in the ground?
Look in the telco vault of any large building old enough to have POTS lines coming in on real copper -- there'll be huge fuse panels, one fuse for each line; same technology was used for T1 and T3 circuits as well, though probably with different fuses. I can't specify exactly what type of fuses or panels you would buy, as I've religiously avoided inter-building copper myself. Fiber good, copper bad. Move along :) S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
735 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 225'. 734 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 450'. When you use this long cable length, the mux that is providing the DS-3 needs to have the pads removed (or provisioned) for a long cable run. Transition Networks (and others) make DS-3 fiber converters. They are not cheap. This would be my preferred method as fiber (especially OSP) is much better suited for outdoor exposure and temperature changes. -Andy --- "Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> wrote:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
Andy, Thank you for bringing up fiber converters. I have a comment I was trying to bring to the list that escaped this old man's memory. To the best of my recollection, I have not implemented a fiber converter that lasted more than say, 12 months. I've tried different brands with no luck. So, my question is, does a 'ruggedized' fiber/coax/X-baseT converter exist? Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories, Inc. http://www.bblabs.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:07 AM To: Mike (meuon) Harrison; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: DS3 Coax.. 735 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 225'. 734 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 450'. When you use this long cable length, the mux that is providing the DS-3 needs to have the pads removed (or provisioned) for a long cable run. Transition Networks (and others) make DS-3 fiber converters. They are not cheap. This would be my preferred method as fiber (especially OSP) is much better suited for outdoor exposure and temperature changes. -Andy --- "Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> wrote:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Christopher J. Wolff wrote:
Thank you for bringing up fiber converters. I have a comment I was trying to bring to the list that escaped this old man's memory.
To the best of my recollection, I have not implemented a fiber converter that lasted more than say, 12 months. I've tried different brands with no luck.
So, my question is, does a 'ruggedized' fiber/coax/X-baseT converter exist?
We have had a lot of luck using Transition Networks media conversion kits to push 10/100 Fiber across large spans within our buildings.. http://www.transition.com/ I believe one of the following might work for DS3-to-fiber-and-back: http://www.transition.com/products/mcon_platform/standalone/ds3/scscf30xx.ht... -- Dominic J. Eidson "Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!" - Gimli ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.the-infinite.org/ http://www.the-infinite.org/~dominic/
How "ruggedized" do you need...We use for some ITS/Highway Projects that work pretty well.... Spencer ************************************************** Spencer Wood, Network Manager Ohio Department Of Transportation 1320 Arthur E. Adams Drive Columbus, Ohio 43221 E-Mail: Spencer.Wood@dot.state.oh.us Phone: 614.644.5422/Fax: 614.887.4021/Pager: 866.591.9954 ************************************************************* "Christopher J. Wolff" <chris@bblabs.com> Sent by: owner-nanog@merit.edu 04/17/2003 01:13 PM To <nanog@merit.edu> cc Subject Fiber Converters, was RE: DS3 Coax.. Andy, Thank you for bringing up fiber converters. I have a comment I was trying to bring to the list that escaped this old man's memory. To the best of my recollection, I have not implemented a fiber converter that lasted more than say, 12 months. I've tried different brands with no luck. So, my question is, does a 'ruggedized' fiber/coax/X-baseT converter exist? Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories, Inc. http://www.bblabs.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:07 AM To: Mike (meuon) Harrison; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: DS3 Coax.. 735 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 225'. 734 DS-3 cable has a specification max length of 450'. When you use this long cable length, the mux that is providing the DS-3 needs to have the pads removed (or provisioned) for a long cable run. Transition Networks (and others) make DS-3 fiber converters. They are not cheap. This would be my preferred method as fiber (especially OSP) is much better suited for outdoor exposure and temperature changes. -Andy --- "Mike (meuon) Harrison" <meuon@highertech.net> wrote:
I need to run a DS3 across our parking lot.. Seriously.
What's the max length I can use coax for (I know, gotta use a GID), and what's the best brand/type of coax I can use? It'll be through innerduct.. Looking for some real world answers from people that do a LOT more of this than me.. (It might take 350-400 feet).
participants (15)
-
Andrea Abrahamsen -
Andy Ellifson -
Christopher J. Wolff -
David Lesher -
Dominic J. Eidson -
Jim Segrave -
Josh Richards -
Mike (meuon) Harrison -
neil＠DOMINO.ORG -
Roy -
rs＠seastrom.com -
Spencer Wood -
Stephen J. Wilcox -
Stephen Sprunk -
Timothy R. McKee