Italy orders ISPs to block sites
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... From Monsters and Critics.com Tech News Italy bans unauthorised online gambling sites By DPA Mar 3, 2006, 19:00 GMT Rome - Italy has become the first European nation to outlaw scores of unauthorised gambling sites that are available on the Internet. Italy\'s Economy Ministry has published a list of more than 600 offshore gaming sites that are in the process of being made unavailable to Italian internet users. The list includes popular gambling sites such as 888.com, which is based in the Caribbean island of Antigua and which describes itself as \'the world\'s No. 1 online casino & poker room.\' A spokesperson for Italy\'s State Monopolies told Deutsche Presse- Agentur dpa on Friday that Italian police were currently moving to prevent Italian internet providers from allowing connections to the banned sites. Internet providers that fail to comply face fines of up to 180,000 euros (216,000 dollars). ... More available at http://tech.monstersandcritics.com/news/ article_1134456.php
Rodney Joffe wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
where is the world going to ? what's next: banning of foreign automobile makers websites ?
This just means that there will be an offshore proxy market in the near future. Owen --On March 6, 2006 12:41:24 PM -0700 Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
From Monsters and Critics.com
Tech News Italy bans unauthorised online gambling sites By DPA Mar 3, 2006, 19:00 GMT
Rome - Italy has become the first European nation to outlaw scores of unauthorised gambling sites that are available on the Internet.
Italy\'s Economy Ministry has published a list of more than 600 offshore gaming sites that are in the process of being made unavailable to Italian internet users.
The list includes popular gambling sites such as 888.com, which is based in the Caribbean island of Antigua and which describes itself as \'the world\'s No. 1 online casino & poker room.\'
A spokesperson for Italy\'s State Monopolies told Deutsche Presse- Agentur dpa on Friday that Italian police were currently moving to prevent Italian internet providers from allowing connections to the banned sites. Internet providers that fail to comply face fines of up to 180,000 euros (216,000 dollars). ...
More available at http://tech.monstersandcritics.com/news/ article_1134456.php
-- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
Operationally, I wonder how many ISPs will bother removing these zones when the law will be repealed (because there is no chance that it will stand before the european courts).
From a more practical POV, it can be noted that the obvious methods useful to bypass the "block" (using a random open proxy or just a random open resolver) have been widely advertised on gambling forums even before it was implemented. Personally I do not believe that the government ever believed that this would work, it's just a trick to add some extra future earnings to the 2006 budget law.
-- ciao, Marco
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
good thing people use dns servers other than those put up by their ISP :) when last faced with this situation, State-of-PA ChildPorn Law... Null routing the affected ip-addresses was the only 'good' solution :( -Chris
Singapore seems to force all of their ISPs to send all HTTP requests through a proxy that has a set of rules defining sites you are not allowed to visit. Owen --On March 7, 2006 1:48:39 AM +0000 "Christopher L. Morrow" <christopher.morrow@verizonbusiness.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
good thing people use dns servers other than those put up by their ISP :) when last faced with this situation, State-of-PA ChildPorn Law... Null routing the affected ip-addresses was the only 'good' solution :(
-Chris
-- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
On 3/7/06, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Singapore seems to force all of their ISPs to send all HTTP requests through a proxy that has a set of rules defining sites you are not allowed to visit.
As does (for example) the UAE, and China. But not Italy. So this is quite moot, I expect. Also - having all local cable / broadband / dialup providers do something like this would cover the vast majority of internet users in the country .. not too many people or companies are going to be running their own resolvers, at least in a small country like Italy. The numbers are likely to be trivially small as compared to the number of people just using their ISP resolvers. So a fake zone loaded into the resolvers redirecting these banned sites elsewhere should do just fine, I guess. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.lists@gmail.com)
--On March 7, 2006 1:35:05 PM +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/7/06, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Singapore seems to force all of their ISPs to send all HTTP requests through a proxy that has a set of rules defining sites you are not allowed to visit.
As does (for example) the UAE, and China. But not Italy.
So this is quite moot, I expect.
Also - having all local cable / broadband / dialup providers do something like this would cover the vast majority of internet users in the country .. not too many people or companies are going to be running their own resolvers, at least in a small country like Italy.
I guess that depends. Afterall, all you need to run your own resolver is a copy of bind and linux, macos, or windows to run it on. A caching recursive resolver is pretty easy to set up. If that becomes what it takes to get around government regulations, I suspect gamblers who really want to gamble will learn fairly quickly.
The numbers are likely to be trivially small as compared to the number of people just using their ISP resolvers. So a fake zone loaded into the resolvers redirecting these banned sites elsewhere should do just fine, I guess.
Today, true. Tomorrow, depends on the motivation level of the affected audience and the publication level of the trivial solution to the currently prescribed method of control. Owen
-- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.lists@gmail.com)
Hi Folks across the ocean.. I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law. So I doubt, that the European Court would really rule agaist this.... Each country has specific laws, that othewr nations do not not understand and we all should accept that. Imagine, if kids in the US would be able to order Cannabis from Online-shops in the Netherlands (as it is leaglized there)through mail order? Would you or your legislation agree to that? See.. I hope you don't mind this commentary from a European... Tom -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] Im Auftrag von Owen DeLong Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. März 2006 08:54 An: Christopher L. Morrow; Marco d'Itri Cc: NANOG Betreff: Re: Italy orders ISPs to block sites Singapore seems to force all of their ISPs to send all HTTP requests through a proxy that has a set of rules defining sites you are not allowed to visit. Owen --On March 7, 2006 1:48:39 AM +0000 "Christopher L. Morrow" <christopher.morrow@verizonbusiness.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
good thing people use dns servers other than those put up by their ISP :) when last faced with this situation, State-of-PA ChildPorn Law... Null routing the affected ip-addresses was the only 'good' solution :(
-Chris
-- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
actually, they -can- order it... its the delivery thats the hard part. :) on-line gaming is handled pretty much the same way - the tax authorities really want to know where that loot came from ... or went to !!! :) --bill On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:13:21AM +0100, tom wrote:
Hi Folks across the ocean..
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law. So I doubt, that the European Court would really rule agaist this.... Each country has specific laws, that othewr nations do not not understand and we all should accept that. Imagine, if kids in the US would be able to order Cannabis from Online-shops in the Netherlands (as it is leaglized there)through mail order? Would you or your legislation agree to that?
See..
I hope you don't mind this commentary from a European...
Tom
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] Im Auftrag von Owen DeLong Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. März 2006 08:54 An: Christopher L. Morrow; Marco d'Itri Cc: NANOG Betreff: Re: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
Singapore seems to force all of their ISPs to send all HTTP requests through a proxy that has a set of rules defining sites you are not allowed to visit.
Owen
--On March 7, 2006 1:48:39 AM +0000 "Christopher L. Morrow" <christopher.morrow@verizonbusiness.com> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that... So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
good thing people use dns servers other than those put up by their ISP :) when last faced with this situation, State-of-PA ChildPorn Law... Null routing the affected ip-addresses was the only 'good' solution :(
-Chris
-- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
On 7-mrt-2006, at 9:13, tom wrote:
Hi Folks across the ocean..
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business
It looks strange from the right side of the ocean too, at least to me. What I don't get is why they think it's ok to limit our freedom of information. If they want to make sure we don't gamble in undesired ways, they should cut off the stuff that matters: the money. There is much more precedent for that.
Imagine, if kids in the US would be able to order Cannabis from Online-shops in the Netherlands (as it is leaglized there)through mail order? Would you or your legislation agree to that?
Actually, buying this stuff for personal use isn't really "legal" but there is a policy of not doing anything against it, which obviously boils down to the same thing. Dealing in larger quantities and sending it across the border is a different matter, though. (One of the arguments in favor of this policy is that in countries like France or the US even more people smoke cannabis. I find it hard to believe that this would be physically possible, it seems like half the population uses the stuff over here.)
On Tuesday 07 Mar 2006 08:13, you wrote:
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
Nah the US has strict rules on gambling it is the chosen method of enforcement. If I were the gambling sites, I'd stick up a loads of political commentary on the corruption of the Italian Prime minister, and claim political censorship, suddenly all the edges blur.
--On March 7, 2006 9:13:21 AM +0100 tom <tier1@ncinet.de> wrote:
Hi Folks across the ocean..
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
Even in the US, this is true. Gambling in California is illegal (except indian casions, long story), because Nevada has a powerful lobby in California.
So I doubt, that the European Court would really rule agaist this.... Each country has specific laws, that othewr nations do not not understand and we all should accept that.
I wouldn't expect the court to rule against it, but, I do suspect that motivated Italians will trivially work around it.
Imagine, if kids in the US would be able to order Cannabis from Online-shops in the Netherlands (as it is leaglized there)through mail order? Would you or your legislation agree to that?
Nope, but, the hard part there is the importation of the Cannabis. Frankly, kids here CAN order it from the online shops. The hard part is getting the delivery to arrive without getting prosecuted. However, for gambling, it's a bit more complicated. Generally, the movement of money in and out of most countries is not restricted, and, what the money does while it is in the other countries is even harder to control unless the two countries in question have treaties about such things. As such, since gambling involves no physical product other than money, and, technically, the Italians are moving the money out of Italy, gambling on foreign soil, then moving their winnings back into Italy (much like they flew, for example, to Monaco, gambled in the Casinos there, then flew home with their winnings), it's quite a bit harder to enforce. I don't question the validity of the law. That's between the Italians and their government. I question the practicality of enforcing the law because the way the internet and the international economies work, it is virtually impossible to enforce this short of something like the great firewall of China (which still allows SSH through for the most part, so...). Owen -- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
On Mar 7, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
Even in the US, this is true. Gambling in California is illegal (except indian casions, long story), because Nevada has a powerful lobby in California.
That's an interesting comment. The largest cardroom in the world is in California (Commerce Casino). And there are plenty of places to play poker. The difference is that California has decided (properly, IMHO) that poker is a game of _skill_, not chance. And there are other games you can play at these cardrooms, but you play them against other players, not the house. And most online gambling sites either allow poker or sports betting. I guess you could call sports begging "gambling", but there is skill involved there too. Not that things like "facts" matter to politicians, or even lawyers.... :-)
I don't question the validity of the law. That's between the Italians and their government. I question the practicality of enforcing the law because the way the internet and the international economies work, it is virtually impossible to enforce this short of something like the great firewall of China (which still allows SSH through for the most part, so...).
Bringing this back to Operational Content <gasp>, this is the big point. I honestly do no believe you can stop people from getting to sites they want to see without stopping Internet access as a whole. Even the Great Firewall Of China is essentially swiss cheese to anyone who wants to get around it. Fear of "meat-space" punishment is probably more important than the technology used. Yes, most people use their ISP's recursive NS, but that's 'cause they're lazy. When it stops working, they'll use something else. Block $DEFAULT_PORT for filesharing, they'll find another. So unless you proxy 100% of the traffic (possible, but difficult), and watch for proxies outside your proxy (nearly impossible), people will get through. Seeing governments try to legislate around technology they do not understand is ... amusing. If they want to stop this activity, making a law regarding routers or servers is not the way to do it. IMHO, of course. -- TTFN, patrick
--On March 7, 2006 8:12:59 AM -0500 "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net> wrote:
On Mar 7, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
Even in the US, this is true. Gambling in California is illegal (except indian casions, long story), because Nevada has a powerful lobby in California.
That's an interesting comment.
The largest cardroom in the world is in California (Commerce Casino). And there are plenty of places to play poker.
The difference is that California has decided (properly, IMHO) that poker is a game of _skill_, not chance. And there are other games you can play at these cardrooms, but you play them against other players, not the house. And most online gambling sites either allow poker or sports betting. I guess you could call sports begging "gambling", but there is skill involved there too.
Not that things like "facts" matter to politicians, or even lawyers.... :-)
Actually, it's not so much skill vs. luck, but, the fact that CA has certain exceptions for "mutual benefits" betting which is a fancy term for the house gets a fixed percentage no matter who wins. This allows for card rooms and horse tracks.
I don't question the validity of the law. That's between the Italians and their government. I question the practicality of enforcing the law because the way the internet and the international economies work, it is virtually impossible to enforce this short of something like the great firewall of China (which still allows SSH through for the most part, so...).
Bringing this back to Operational Content <gasp>, this is the big point. I honestly do no believe you can stop people from getting to sites they want to see without stopping Internet access as a whole. Even the Great Firewall Of China is essentially swiss cheese to anyone who wants to get around it. Fear of "meat-space" punishment is probably more important than the technology used.
You'd be surprised how effective the GFOC can be. The Chinese government doesn't hesitate to walk in and literally cut the power to a datacenter if they so desire.
Yes, most people use their ISP's recursive NS, but that's 'cause they're lazy. When it stops working, they'll use something else. Block $DEFAULT_PORT for filesharing, they'll find another. So unless you proxy 100% of the traffic (possible, but difficult), and watch for proxies outside your proxy (nearly impossible), people will get through.
Not even possible to proxy 100% of traffic unless you block all SSL and prevent SSH.
Seeing governments try to legislate around technology they do not understand is ... amusing. If they want to stop this activity, making a law regarding routers or servers is not the way to do it.
Certainly not the effective way to do it. Owen -- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
On Mar 7, 2006, at 12:13 AM, tom wrote:
I hope you don't mind this commentary from a European...
I certainly don't mind commentary from a European. I just wouldn't want to hear the same European complaining about the Chinese... :-)
I certainly don't mind commentary from a European. I just wouldn't want to hear the same European complaining about the Chinese...
yep, those nasty folk at yahoo who ratted to the chinese government are almost as bad as those nasty folk at google who won't rat me out to the us government. wait a sec! something is strange here. randy
Hi folks just one addition..as it was already mentioned where the money is from and where it goes thats "money-washing" and again, this is a criminal act in lots of countries.. do not missunderstand me.. I do not mind gambling and if people wanna do it, let them.. but if their goverment wants to control it in some way, they should be allowed to do so..(even if this is nearly impossible) at the end of the street, a bancrupt gambler will fall into the social network and the public has to pay for him having had fun...and surley, I do not wanna support that either.. Tom
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:13:21AM +0100, tom wrote:
Hi Folks across the ocean..
I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of restriction looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in Europe gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state economy and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled casinos is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
Much like in the USA.
So I doubt, that the European Court would really rule agaist this....
Who knows what a court will do?
Each country has specific laws, that othewr nations do not not understand and we all should accept that. Imagine, if kids in the US would be able to order Cannabis from Online-shops in the Netherlands (as it is leaglized there)through mail order? Would you or your legislation agree to that?
Many would. You may have heard of an organisation named NORML? The state of Californa [or perhaps the alternate world of ...] has several times almost made it actually legal in some cases. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Mar 06, Rodney Joffe <rjoffe@centergate.com> wrote:
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
So far, the method officially recommended by the government entity involved with collecting the gambling fees has been to create fake zones on the caching resolvers of the large consumer ISPs.
I always think of italy as a more liberal country than the rest of europe. I hope this will change the dns world once and forever. It is not so hard to build your own dns server. The rest of us can buy routers with builtin antizensoring dns resolvers. It makes sense running your own dns. It is faster than the gift (poison) dns from your ISP. Nasty: english "gift", means poison in germany :) It does not matter wether u youse bind or djbdns. Do use it!
Operationally, I wonder how many ISPs will bother removing these zones when the law will be repealed (because there is no chance that it will stand before the european courts).
Italy has a name to loose for unzensored internet. I hope they dont ruin it.
From a more practical POV, it can be noted that the obvious methods useful to bypass the "block" (using a random open proxy or just a random open resolver) have been widely advertised on gambling forums even before it was implemented. Personally I do not believe that the government ever believed that this would work, it's just a trick to add some extra future earnings to the 2006 budget law.
Kind regards Peter and Karin Dambier -- Peter and Karin Dambier The Public-Root Consortium Graeffstrasse 14 D-64646 Heppenheim +49(6252)671-788 (Telekom) +49(179)108-3978 (O2 Genion) +49(6252)750-308 (VoIP: sipgate.de) mail: peter@peter-dambier.de mail: peter@echnaton.serveftp.com http://iason.site.voila.fr/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/iason/
Switzerland has made similar requests and ISPs in .CH have deployed acl to block the sites and remove them from DNS. Neil.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Rodney Joffe Sent: 06 March 2006 19:41 To: NANOG Subject: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
Neil J. McRae wrote:
Switzerland has made similar requests and ISPs in .CH have deployed acl to block the sites and remove them from DNS.
It was just one single investigation judge who requested this as a temporary restraint order in a libel case because they couldn't shut down the server or whole domain name itself. It didn't work out at all and almost all ISP's took this to appeal which was then granted and the order was lifted. The ISP's were "required" to block one specific dedicated domain on their resolvers. Due to this thing the site in question got a lot of publicity and newspapers also wrote about ways to get around DNS blocks. Since then (somewhen in 2002 IIRC) this whole blocking thing is essentially dead and has never been attempted again. Before and after this there has been some rah-rah about various cporn-, racist- and gambling sites with different theoretical approaches by various pressure groups and government departments. However before anything was even remotely implemented a huge outcry ensued and all of it was quickly shelfed again. In 2000 or 2001 a jewish holocaust pressure group partly successfully managed to scare one larger ISP into IP blocking of some US based server with racist stuff on it. As expected the servers moved quickly and the ACL caused various side effects for later legitimate users of those IP addresses. From then on this approach is proven dead as well. All those attempts so far have been based on the legal theory that the ISP is liable and participant to whatever is happening on the Internet and reachable/available through his connection or network globally. Needless to say that this theory doesn't fly with the real judges. -- Andre
Neil.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Rodney Joffe Sent: 06 March 2006 19:41 To: NANOG Subject: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Neil J. McRae wrote:
Switzerland has made similar requests and ISPs in .CH have deployed acl to block the sites and remove them from DNS.
So long as there no criminal penalties associated with the half-assed solutions I suppose it doesn't really matter. Gov'ts will see that their requests are pointless and ineffective. It's in cases like the State-of-PA law where criminal penalties were applicable that things get dicey. (and yes, CP is bad news, and yes gov'ts no matter the locality can and do make silly laws that are sometimes counter productive to their intentions)
Neil.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Rodney Joffe Sent: 06 March 2006 19:41 To: NANOG Subject: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
Well, I can't blame Italy for trying to enforce their laws, but maybe can give them a better idea. Maybe instead of all those ACLs, other type of Blocks, DNS removals,etc.. Governments should more go to the direction of making agreement on the credit card companies which automatically will charge a tax when somebody is using those websites. I am sure almost all the transactions are thru debit account transfers or credit cards such as VISA, MC, or AMEX and it's not hard to find out the bank accounts of the companies which are doing gambling. So instead of trying to block something that the real mean is the FREEDOM (we call it Internet) go and push the banks to enforce the laws. Mehmet Akcin On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 17:19 +0000, Christopher L. Morrow wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Neil J. McRae wrote:
Switzerland has made similar requests and ISPs in .CH have deployed acl to block the sites and remove them from DNS.
So long as there no criminal penalties associated with the half-assed solutions I suppose it doesn't really matter. Gov'ts will see that their requests are pointless and ineffective. It's in cases like the State-of-PA law where criminal penalties were applicable that things get dicey.
(and yes, CP is bad news, and yes gov'ts no matter the locality can and do make silly laws that are sometimes counter productive to their intentions)
Neil.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Rodney Joffe Sent: 06 March 2006 19:41 To: NANOG Subject: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
It appears that Italy has ordered Italian ISPs to block access to a number of Internet Gambling sites. It would be interesting to see how the Italian ISPs are handling this, what with dynamic DNS and all that...
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:53:40 +0000 Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@nic.pr> wrote:
Well, I can't blame Italy for trying to enforce their laws, but maybe can give them a better idea.
Maybe instead of all those ACLs, other type of Blocks, DNS removals,etc.. Governments should more go to the direction of making agreement on the credit card companies which automatically will charge a tax when somebody is using those websites.
I am sure almost all the transactions are thru debit account transfers or credit cards such as VISA, MC, or AMEX and it's not hard to find out the bank accounts of the companies which are doing gambling. So instead of trying to block something that the real mean is the FREEDOM (we call it Internet) go and push the banks to enforce the laws.
Yes, and the US government does that, too. It sometimes comes down to who has a bigger lobby, the bankers or the ISPs. Note also that banks make money directly on each such transaction; ISPs don't.
:-> "Mehmet" == Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@nic.pr> writes: > Well, I can't blame Italy for trying to enforce their laws, but maybe > can give them a better idea. no no, please blame :) > Maybe instead of all those ACLs, other type of Blocks, DNS > removals,etc.. Governments should more go to the direction of making > agreement on the credit card companies which automatically will charge a > tax when somebody is using those websites. The justification that they use for this law is that the sites in question do not respect the rules of how gambling should be done, so the gov't blocked them to protect the italian gamblers from the evil foreign companies ripping their money. How could you even think that this law has to do with missing tax revenues for services provided abroad by foreign companies? <G> Pf -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierfrancesco Caci | Network & System Administrator - INOC-DBA: 6762*PFC p.caci@seabone.net | Telecom Italia Sparkle - http://etabeta.noc.seabone.net/ Linux clarabella 2.6.12-10-686-smp #1 SMP Mon Jan 16 18:39:17 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
participants (20)
-
Andre Oppermann -
bmanning＠vacation.karoshi.com -
Christopher L. Morrow -
Fred Baker -
Iljitsch van Beijnum -
Joseph S D Yao -
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