Re: Oct. 3, 2018 EAS Presidential Alert test
--- sean@donelan.com wrote: From: Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> Sometimes people are asleep (disasters don't always happen at 2pm on a work day), live alone, are not constantly watching TV or checking social media. Its unlikely any system will ever be able to reach everyone. ------------------------------------------- Or some live where there is no cell coverage, don't watch TV, live where their neighbors are far away and no gov't folks are going to knock on doors because the driveway is long, locked at the front gate and there're dogs in the yard... :-) scott
On Sat, 06 Oct 2018 15:09:09 -0700, "Scott Weeks" said:
Or some live where there is no cell coverage, don't watch TV, live where their neighbors are far away and no gov't folks are going to knock on doors because the driveway is long, locked at the front gate and there're dogs in the yard... :-)
Population density issues (you can only have so many people with long driveways and neighbors far away per square mile) mean that these people are *way* down the long tail. Right up there with people who live on tiny almost uninhabited islands out in the middle of the ocean. :) Since there isn't infinite money to build a system that will reach *everybody*, the only reasonable approach is to cobble together a set of overlapping systems on existing technology that covers the most people while staying inside the funding restrictions.
On Sat, 6 Oct 2018, valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
Since there isn't infinite money to build a system that will reach *everybody*, the only reasonable approach is to cobble together a set of overlapping systems on existing technology that covers the most people while staying inside the funding restrictions.
There is also the circular logic of budget cutting. 1. We don't need to fund outdoor sirens, becuase we have E.A.S. on radio/TV/cable. 2. We don't need E.A.S. because we have NOAA weather radio. 3. We don't need NWR because we have Wireless Emergencey Alerts. 4. We don't need WEA, because we have outdoor sirens. 5. Goto 1 There is no business case for Amazon, Apple or Google to include emergency alerts as part of their smart speakers. The majority of cities did not repair/replace their outdoor civil defense sirens when they reached their 40-year lifespan in the 1990s. Tornado Alley likely still has the most working outdoor sirens, but even in that part of the country a majority of cities saved money by not maintaining them. An average outdoor siren costs $25,000 installation, $1,000/year maintenance and only covers 1/2-mile radius -- outdoors. In most places, an outdoor siren won't wake you up indoors. This year's federal budget proposed cutting 20% of NOAA weather readio transmitters to save money. Fewer than 5% of households buy weather radios. Although FCC and FEMA help standardize national disaster response systems, such as 9-1-1, E.A.S. and W.E.A, essentially 100% use of those systems is for local disasters and emergencies. It makes sense for some national consistency for things like stop signs and emergency alerts and 9-1-1. People travel and work in other cities, and aren't ready for lots of local variations during emergencies. Since 2011, EAS and WEA has been used for 33,000 local weather alerts and local emergencies and only 4 national tests (4 for EAS and 1 for WEA). FEMA only has about 15 people to maintain its national warning system 24/7/365. Giving the lack of disaster funding, you are more likely NOT to get any warnings during a disaster than ever seeing any black helicopters flying over your house. Alexa won't say a word.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:54 AM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
There is no business case for Amazon, Apple or Google to include emergency alerts as part of their smart speakers.
I have a $50 weather alert radio. Does it have have batteries? Are they charged? Are they almost dead? When did I last hear an alert from it? Does your smoke alarm have batteries? Are they dead? When did you last test it? Google solved these problems with ~$120 smoke alarm and a decent cell phone app. If they released a new version with weather alerts, I wouldn't think twice about dropping $200 on it. So how is there no business case? No disrespect intended, but you failed to back up that statement. Perhaps I'm the only one who would spend more than $50 on a weather alert device? -A
On Mon, 8 Oct 2018, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
Google solved these problems with ~$120 smoke alarm and a decent cell phone app. If they released a new version with weather alerts, I wouldn't think twice about dropping $200 on it.
A company already made a combination smoke alarm/weather radio. Halo Smart Labs went out of business earlier this year. https://www.smartthings.com/products/halo-smart-labs-halo-smoke-and-carbon-m... A $120+ niche silicon valley product is great for the nerds. Whats the business case for everyone else? What's the business case for reaching 126 million households, with a product that is afforable or already part of something they already have.
So how is there no business case? No disrespect intended, but you failed to back up that statement.
More people own Amazon smart speakers than NEST thermostats. Amazon product people have told me there is no demand for emergency alerts in its Alexa product. Likewise, I've asked Google developers. They said the same thing about adding emergency alerts to their Google assistant product.
Perhaps I'm the only one who would spend more than $50 on a weather alert device?
Fewer than 5% of households buy weather radios. WEA can reach over 60% of households with cell phones. Its not 100%. Yes, 5% of households are willing to spend $50 on a weather radio. How to reach more than 5%? If you know that Google or Amazon plan to add emergency alerts to its smart assistant products, that would be great news. But so far, their product people have been very clear, they see no business case for supporting government emergency alerts on their "smart" products.
On Oct 8, 2018, at 11:19 PM, Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Perhaps I'm the only one who would spend more than $50 on a weather alert device?
Fewer than 5% of households buy weather radios.
WEA can reach over 60% of households with cell phones. Its not 100%.
Yes, 5% of households are willing to spend $50 on a weather radio. How to reach more than 5%?
I’ll chime in again as I’m the original poster for this whole thread (and no I’m not with the FCC or FEMA or anything else, just an average network guy like the rest of us). My weather alert radio did not activate during this test last week. I don’t know if it was supposed to or not, but it certainly does go crazy any time there’s a weather warning issued and for the weekly tests. Yeah, this thread is getting somewhat removed from the original question, so what the heck. I’ve often thought that vehicle radios should have a location-based weather radio built in, just like the location-based regular weather radios you can buy. If I’m traveling in an unfamiliar city and the weather is looking dicey, I won’t have any idea what AM station to turn on. Or if I’m on some 2-lane highway in Nowhere, Oklahoma, etc. etc. etc. Heck, I submitted that idea to a couple aftermarket car stereo manufacturers years ago but was met with crickets. ---- Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 andy@andyring.com
A good home investment people don't immediately think of (I'm sure some here have) is one of those inexpensive computer UPS's. An off-the-shelf 1500VA is usually under $200 or thereabouts. One can run anything off one, like a radio or lamp. Not a lot but I'd imagine 1500VA would keep a small radio and 6W LED 100W equivalent lumens running for 24 hours? Probably more. And it'll recharge phones, batteries, etc. I run my big screen TV through one not so much for emergency backup per se but more for when they bounce the power up and down occasionally which I figure can't be good for it. But in a lengthy power outage I've shut that TV off and used it for other things I mention, there it was ready to go. For example it wouldn't be a bad holiday gift for an elderly or stupid person you know (OH DON'T REACT!) who wouldn't ever think of such a thing. Particularly if you set it up for them and showed them it's just receptacles pointing out those backed up and those not and how you should otherwise always leave it plugged and charging. Anything can be plugged in tho probably not the fridge (i.e., only small things.) And it can be carried around the house if needed (e.g., to the bedroom for a light.) -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Many of those lightweight UPS units have a very small battery in them and are really designed to 1) carry the computer across a power flicker, or 2) provide a few minutes to shut down the computer in a controlled manner. Units with much bigger batteries to last a day are much more expensive and much heavier. If you're thinking of investing in one, download the manual and take a look at the runtime-vs-load chart. I believe you'll be disappointed. I was. - Brian On Tue, Oct 09, 2018 at 02:50:10PM -0400, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
A good home investment people don't immediately think of (I'm sure some here have) is one of those inexpensive computer UPS's. An off-the-shelf 1500VA is usually under $200 or thereabouts.
One can run anything off one, like a radio or lamp. Not a lot but I'd imagine 1500VA would keep a small radio and 6W LED 100W equivalent lumens running for 24 hours? Probably more. And it'll recharge phones, batteries, etc.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 9:19 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
A company already made a combination smoke alarm/weather radio. Halo Smart Labs went out of business earlier this year. https://www.smartthings.com/products/halo-smart-labs-halo-smoke-and-carbon-m...
*click* *buy* Thanks for the link. :)
A $120+ niche silicon valley product is great for the nerds. Whats the business case for everyone else?
I know plenty of non-nerds that live in tornado and hurricane-prone locations in the US that could also use a nice fire alarm/CO detector in their house.
What's the business case for reaching 126 million households, with a product that is afforable or already part of something they already have.
Sure--I totally agree. But we don't build smoke detectors into our cell phones because that's not a very good use case. And I'm not aware of weather alerts being broadcast to cell phones without having an app installed, and it's unreliable. (Although some already have AM/FM radios in them...)
More people own Amazon smart speakers than NEST thermostats. Amazon product people have told me there is no demand for emergency alerts in its Alexa product.
Likewise, I've asked Google developers. They said the same thing about adding emergency alerts to their Google assistant product.
Maybe so. I never received a survey. Sounds like they just aren't interested in developing a 'boring' feature.
Fewer than 5% of households buy weather radios.
That's...surprising to me. Any chance the majority of those 5% are in hurricane or tornado areas? *wonders what smoke alarm coverage is*
If you know that Google or Amazon plan to add emergency alerts to its smart assistant products, that would be great news. But so far, their product people have been very clear, they see no business case for supporting government emergency alerts on their "smart" products.
The only down-side I see to that is that my assistant products lose power immediately when the grid fails. My smoke alarm is wired, but it has a battery backup. Thanks for the info. -A
Once upon a time, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> said:
And I'm not aware of weather alerts being broadcast to cell phones without having an app installed, and it's unreliable.
The same part of the phone that was used for the Presidential Alert can also be used for weather alerts (it is used some around here, but don't know how reliably).
*wonders what smoke alarm coverage is*
Isn't that part of building code for all new houses for at least 10 years? I think it is where I live.
The only down-side I see to that is that my assistant products lose power immediately when the grid fails. My smoke alarm is wired, but it has a battery backup.
So power your assistant from an UPS... maybe with a PoE splitter (since low-voltage Cat5 is easier to run)? -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
Related: Handy - I have two little boxes I bought at radio shack many years ago. One converts from the car lighter plug (or whatever they call it these days) to a three-prong (5-15R, ok?), the other converts from a regular 120V house plug to a "12V car lighter" which actually was very handy once when a house guest forgot their phone wall charger but had their car charger so I noticed was sitting in the yard with their car running charging their phone and I said "I CAN HELP YOU WITH THAT!" I believe the key word is "inverter". I can't imagine they're much more than $20 each. With a long extension cord it means even w/o a generator you can run or charge some small things off your car even if that was never the plan. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
On Tue, 9 Oct 2018, Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote:
Sure--I totally agree. But we don't build smoke detectors into our cell phones because that's not a very good use case. And I'm not aware of weather alerts being broadcast to cell phones without having an app installed, and it's unreliable. (Although some already have AM/FM radios in them...)
Since 2011, WEA has been used for over 30,000 weather alerts including tsunami, tornado, extreme wind, hurricane & typhoons. Unless you turn alerts off on your cell phone. iPhone 5 (iOS 6 and later) includes WEA. https://www.weather.gov/wrn/wea Weather alerts are the largest catagory of Wireless Emergency Alerts on cell phones. However, WEA is only used for the most severe weather alerts. WEA is built into most smart cell phones, and overcomes the congestion issues with text based Apps on cell phones. And we come full circle. No single warning system works for everything. That's why its important to have multiple warning systems or warning communication channels. Amazon Alexa is ahead of Google Assistant with weather warnings. Alexa won't proactively warn you about tornados. But if you ask "Alexa, What's the weather?" Alexa will tell you when there is a tornado warning in your area at that moment. Google Assistant only tells you the forecast, not information about active tornado warnings in your area. Siri and Cortana are very far behind both Amazon and Google.
participants (8)
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Aaron C. de Bruyn -
Andy Ringsmuth -
Brian Kantor -
bzs＠theworld.com -
Chris Adams -
Scott Weeks -
Sean Donelan -
valdis.kletnieks＠vt.edu