-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6. Thanks in advance, Todd Todd Christell Manager Network Architecture and Support www.springnet.net <http://www.springnet.net> 417.831.8688 Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 10.0.1 (Build 4020) Charset: iso-8859-1 wj8DBQFLoSZ1pX6SNVIC1QgRAubmAJ9jCx38cd+jEq3tUYwabyC/o/W2DgCaArb7 7BwL9r8E27sGhO2x394FgYE= =6CqS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Will your presentation viewed anywhere like youtube? I'd like to hear or see it.....
From: tchristell@springnet.net To: nanog@nanog.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: IPv6 in Education Question
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So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
Thanks in advance,
Todd
Todd Christell
Manager Network Architecture and Support
www.springnet.net <http://www.springnet.net>
417.831.8688
Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I don't know what their plans are but I'm NOT very photogenic... It is really a very basic introduction as the audience will have varied experience levels. Current IPv4 addresses, their exhaustion and why NAT is evil. Intro to the structure of an IPv6 address, beginning subnetting, getting a handle around how huge the numbers are, and why NAT64 is evil. Transition mechanisms and the inherent problems. Mostly trying to continue a grass roots effort to get things moving. When I talk to up streams and hardware vendors all I hear is "We aren't getting many requests for v6." So I'm trying to change that by stirring the masses to push IPv6 requirements to the parties in question. Technically accurate, but something that they all can relate to and take home with them. That's mainly why I was looking for a few cool education-centric ideas to help instill some ownership. Todd Todd Christell Manager Network Architecture and Support www.springnet.net 417.831.8688 Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508 - -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Kim [mailto:brandon.kim@brandontek.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:28 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: IPv6 in Education Question Will your presentation viewed anywhere like youtube? I'd like to hear or see it.....
From: tchristell@springnet.net To: nanog@nanog.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: IPv6 in Education Question
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So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
Thanks in advance,
Todd
Todd Christell
Manager Network Architecture and Support
www.springnet.net <http://www.springnet.net>
417.831.8688
Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508
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No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2752 - Release Date: 03/17/10 02:33:00 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 10.0.1 (Build 4020) Charset: utf-8 wj8DBQFLoTUVpX6SNVIC1QgRAm+0AJoCiG0gVHo0E/Fnbg/UYxnEhtSKQgCeNqHn B7aK6H4+IXA/QsWT/sIyYuo= =qK3A -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Todd, I'm sending you a link from something I blogged about on my site regarding IPv6. I'll send it offline so others don't think I'm spamming the list... From: tchristell@springnet.net To: brandon.kim@brandontek.com; nanog@nanog.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:00:51 -0500 Subject: RE: IPv6 in Education Question -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I don't know what their plans are but I'm NOT very photogenic... It is really a very basic introduction as the audience will have varied experience levels. Current IPv4 addresses, their exhaustion and why NAT is evil. Intro to the structure of an IPv6 address, beginning subnetting, getting a handle around how huge the numbers are, and why NAT64 is evil. Transition mechanisms and the inherent problems. Mostly trying to continue a grass roots effort to get things moving. When I talk to up streams and hardware vendors all I hear is "We aren't getting many requests for v6." So I'm trying to change that by stirring the masses to push IPv6 requirements to the parties in question. Technically accurate, but something that they all can relate to and take home with them. That's mainly why I was looking for a few cool education-centric ideas to help instill some ownership. Todd Todd Christell Manager Network Architecture and Support www.springnet.net 417.831.8688 Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508 - -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Kim [mailto:brandon.kim@brandontek.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:28 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: IPv6 in Education Question Will your presentation viewed anywhere like youtube? I'd like to hear or see it.....
From: tchristell@springnet.net To: nanog@nanog.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: IPv6 in Education Question
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
Thanks in advance,
Todd
Todd Christell
Manager Network Architecture and Support
www.springnet.net <http://www.springnet.net>
417.831.8688
Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508
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wj8DBQFLoSZ1pX6SNVIC1QgRAubmAJ9jCx38cd+jEq3tUYwabyC/o/W2DgCaArb7 7BwL9r8E27sGhO2x394FgYE= =6CqS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2752 - Release Date: 03/17/10 02:33:00 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 10.0.1 (Build 4020) Charset: utf-8 wj8DBQFLoTUVpX6SNVIC1QgRAm+0AJoCiG0gVHo0E/Fnbg/UYxnEhtSKQgCeNqHn B7aK6H4+IXA/QsWT/sIyYuo= =qK3A -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Todd Christell <tchristell@springnet.net> writes:
So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
It's not a question of if but when IPv6 will be used on large scale in the interned. So, form the educational side it's beneficial if students learn about IPv6. So much for the theory I did quite a number of presentations on IPv6 some of them in at university in Germany (not as some official talk but some user group / some students asked me too). Some quotes: "We don't' have time for this." "Well our network equipment is 14 years old, we don't have a budget for new stuff." "We'll implement IPv6 in 13 years, it's when my colleague retires." /me: "Cool. You have IPv6." Professor: "I configured the tunnel myself. Our network people don't this the topic." Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jens: There some ISP's trying to push IPv6. Probably not until the masses really demand it in someway. Or if Google pushes it or some well known company. Perhaps maybe an application that is IPv6 specific.... NAT's and transition protocols seems to extend the life of IPv4. I'm not against them though, they have served us well....hard to let go of things that worked for you for so many years....
From: lists@quux.de To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: IPv6 in Education Question Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:20:11 +0100
Todd Christell <tchristell@springnet.net> writes:
So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
It's not a question of if but when IPv6 will be used on large scale in the interned. So, form the educational side it's beneficial if students learn about IPv6.
So much for the theory
I did quite a number of presentations on IPv6 some of them in at university in Germany (not as some official talk but some user group / some students asked me too). Some quotes:
"We don't' have time for this."
"Well our network equipment is 14 years old, we don't have a budget for new stuff."
"We'll implement IPv6 in 13 years, it's when my colleague retires."
/me: "Cool. You have IPv6." Professor: "I configured the tunnel myself. Our network people don't this the topic."
Jens -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://www.quux.de | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@guug.de | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
In message <SNT119-W21F584CCDCDE1F6448EFDADC2C0@phx.gbl>, Brandon Kim writes:
Jens:
There some ISP's trying to push IPv6. Probably not until the masses really = demand it in someway. Or if Google pushes it or some well known company. Perhaps maybe an applica= tion that is IPv6 specific....
Google is pushing it. The problem is the brower vendors still don't support multi-homed sites well despite it being in host requirements for 20+ years. IPv4 + IPv6 give you a multi-homed site. If you have IPv6 connectivity then you can get to google over IPv6, they will even return AAAA records if you register with them. See the browser problem above for why they are taking this route. Mark
dig google.com aaaa
; <<>> DiG 9.3.2 <<>> google.com aaaa ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 54613 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 6, AUTHORITY: 4, ADDITIONAL: 4 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;google.com. IN AAAA ;; ANSWER SECTION: google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::67 google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::68 google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::69 google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::6a google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::93 google.com. 300 IN AAAA 2a00:1450:8006::63 ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: google.com. 235307 IN NS ns2.google.com. google.com. 235307 IN NS ns3.google.com. google.com. 235307 IN NS ns4.google.com. google.com. 235307 IN NS ns1.google.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.google.com. 59146 IN A 216.239.32.10 ns2.google.com. 65481 IN A 216.239.34.10 ns3.google.com. 59146 IN A 216.239.36.10 ns4.google.com. 59146 IN A 216.239.38.10 ;; Query time: 30 msec ;; SERVER: 204.152.184.67#53(204.152.184.67) ;; WHEN: Thu Mar 18 00:08:37 2010 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 332
NAT's and transition protocols seems to extend the life of IPv4. I'm not ag= ainst them though=2C they have served us well....hard to let go of things that worked for you for so many years..= ..
-- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that
It is such a great opportunity. I had chance to give similar speeches in Brazil last year, and choosed to stress the following topics, besides the basic catechism: - IPv6 is inevitable, it is already part of Internet, and will be fully deployed in few years. Its deploying is slow, but the momentum is increasing; - Universities had an important role in IPv6 development some years ago, and should be leading this process now, but they are not; - It is very important to the Internet, that the network engineers learn about IPv6, and use IPv6, inside universities and schools... - Universities could help the national industry to adopt IPv6 in their products, to secure the current market, or to conquer new ones. []s Moreiras Em 17-03-2010 15:58, Todd Christell escreveu: they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
Thanks in advance,
Todd, Cisco is offering a 4 part series of Webcasts about IPv6 for Education. I've watched the first two, and they haven't really been too vendor specific, but some of it has been insightful, especially from an Education standpoint. The first two are up on the web, and the last two are coming, March 30th and April 13th. These last two are on Security and Unified Communications, which may not be as vital to your talk. If you (or anyone else) would like a link to the registration for all of these, hit me off list, as I wasn't sure if it would be considered spamming or not. Brandon Penglase On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:58:26 -0500 Todd Christell <tchristell@springnet.net> wrote:
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So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6. My major goal is to help them understand the situation so that they can make use of the base of educators in our state to help spread the work about IPv6.
Thanks in advance,
Todd
Todd Christell
Manager Network Architecture and Support
www.springnet.net <http://www.springnet.net>
417.831.8688
Key fingerprint = 4F26 A0B4 5AAD 7FCA 48DD 7F40 A57E 9235 5202 D508
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On Wed, 2010-03-17 at 13:58 -0500, Todd Christell wrote:
So Im giving an introductory talk on IPv6 for a state wide conference for tech coordinators for education. I have the usual catechism of reasons/advantages from the network side but was wondering if there were any good education specific applications of v6.
If implemented properly (i.e., not by using IPv6 to fake all the properties of IPv4, as so many people seem bound and determined to do), then there are several characteristics of IPv6 networks that are of educational interest, though nothing in the protocol is education-specific. First and foremost is that IPv6 is simpler and thus cheaper. Easier to build networks, merge them, expand them, contract them, split them. Every subnet is the right size - no more slicing and dicing subnets, endlessly rearranging too few addresses in new configurations. Design costs go down, admin costs go down, management costs go down, equipment costs go down. Because IPv6 is simpler, security is by definition better and cheaper. Education being perennially penurious, all this has got to be interesting! IPv6 is easier to teach than IPv4. It doesn't have as many edge cases and entrenched workarounds, the notation is cleaner, the protocols are cleaner, and the same set of protocol tools (multicast, ICMPv6, ND etc) is used more consistently. End-to-end transparency means that IPv6 supports peer to peer naturally. That means everyone (students, teachers, parents etc) can talk to each other more easily without having to involve third parties, and can talk to each other from anywhere on the globe. Less mediation, more direct, more distributed. The death of NAT will mean that more and more stuff will be hosted locally - on teaching machines, student laptops, home PCs, mobile phones. I think we will see fragmentation and distribution of things that are now monolithic. Things like Facebook, Twitter, MySpace and so on will be reduced to special purpose indexing services - or will die. Why use them when you can have all your stuff on your mobile phone, accessible 24/7, wherever you are? I'm not sure about the future of VPNs. Mobile IPv6 is effectively a global, standardised, very low-cost, built-in VPN. Students can be inside the school network from home, on the road, overseas.... without special infrastructure outside the home network. So I'd expect to see IPv6 change the face of educational IT - but it will change the face of IT everywhere. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) GPG fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156 Old fingerprint: 07F3 1DF9 9D45 8BCD 7DD5 00CE 4A44 6A03 F43A 7DEF
End-to-end transparency means that IPv6 supports peer to peer naturally. That means everyone (students, teachers, parents etc) can talk to each other more easily without having to involve third parties, and can talk to each other from anywhere on the globe. Less mediation, more direct, more distributed.
The death of NAT will mean that more and more stuff will be hosted locally - on teaching machines, student laptops, home PCs, mobile phones. I think we will see fragmentation and distribution of things that are now monolithic. Things like Facebook, Twitter, MySpace and so on will be reduced to special purpose indexing services - or will die. Why use them when you can have all your stuff on your mobile phone, accessible 24/7, wherever you are?
Good points. Leon CERNET2 network engineer http://www.cernet2.edu.cn/index_en.htm
You're either going to have to sell them on future-proofing or "We're sailing off the edge of the world in two years, there be dragons there, train your folks now." Remember that there are two IPv6 transitions - introducing IPv6 and forcing some people onto it - getting rid of IPv4 after IPv6 support is universal.
Death of NAT NAT's not going away for a long time - IPv6 doesn't need it for address space conservation, and pretends not to need it very much for renumbering IPv6 to IPv6, but it's widely used as a firewall substitute and administrative convenience.
The first IPv6 transition will eliminate some NAT in pure-v6 environments, so there will be applications that are no longer broken and can Just Work, but it'll also introduce several different flavors of IPv4-to-IPv6 NATs/tunnels/etc., so there are other applications that will get broken in new and creative ways. The second IPv6 transition may really finish eliminating NAT, but that won't be for *years*, and you'll need to get all your users deeply involved in IPv6 long before that. Other than networking research and networking-related training, there really aren't education-specific applications of IPv6; there are just sites that you can or can't reach with IPv4 or IPv6. Any big commercial sites will stay reachable with IPv4 for a long time, certainly until IPv6 has been well established for a couple of years, and while there may be new content that's IPv6 only after a while, commercial content sites are more likely to buy IPv4 space if they need it. And most educational sites big enough to be Really Cool already have enough IPv4 space to last a few years, though they may very well start adding IPv6 connectivity just like commercial sites will. -- ---- Thanks; Bill Note that this isn't my regular email account - It's still experimental so far. And Google probably logs and indexes everything you send it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 18/03/2010 18:16, Bill Stewart wrote:
You're either going to have to sell them on future-proofing or "We're sailing off the edge of the world in two years, there be dragons there, train your folks now."
Most students starting this year will be graduating in 3-4 years time, in a world where IANA depletion will almost certainly have happened and RIR depletion will either have happened or about to happen. If they don't have a working knowledge of ipv6 at that point then they're going to find getting employment a lot tougher. Tony -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLom+OAAoJEJ1qCQ6ePCDUXq8IAJuNSJRJWtVWycsvMiAlE3fv /ZE8WCH0Jeu56l43Jg7QKf85Sad5dV9fxvsM5+cVXKaGHrPV+z+nFQcXA8RIbsvf lEdZFCK/krMUrWmM0mIEAqlB3FZ64L5xI4EqujRgoUVINToAgC3WR2PHXMf07eRn xYeyw+thiC3XYZNEjCJUwNKdH1N6brvsQ7otmZZrgoyO7J9dQAKEccUtc5euR84j kKO7wn+0LCtUqryM1uE+adBOIlWQG7+3WiaVXICMgKRCuYG/17vY4jec/xHgn3vh Wq98kpddrsmWPib6ezdo9yVFL2j0idoSkJ/s/5zjzKoREmWYBb2viYiL6hoX5w0= =ZWSF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 11:16 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
You're either going to have to sell them on future-proofing or "We're sailing off the edge of the world in two years, there be dragons there, train your folks now."
Or sell them on the point that IPv6 is where the innovation is. We have literally no idea what our children will be doing with restored end-to-end transparency and abundant addresses. That's where education has to be. It's not an educational "feature", but a very important emergent property...
Remember that there are two IPv6 transitions - introducing IPv6 and forcing some people onto it - getting rid of IPv4 after IPv6 support is universal.
And the third (well, probably the second, between those two) - learning to *really use* IPv6.
Death of NAT NAT's not going away for a long time - IPv6 doesn't need it for address space conservation, and pretends not to need it very much for renumbering IPv6 to IPv6, but it's widely used as a firewall substitute and administrative convenience.
Both oddities that I confidently predict will not survive long in the face of the enormous advantages that properly-implemented IPv6 can bring. A teensy packet filter substitutes for the "security" aspect, and PI address space deals with the second.
The first IPv6 transition will eliminate some NAT in pure-v6 environments, so there will be applications that are no longer broken and can Just Work, but it'll also introduce several different flavors of IPv4-to-IPv6 NATs/tunnels/etc.,
Sure, there will be practical reasons why people need this or that half-solution, this or that broken stopgap. But we can keep the Dark Years fewer by trying not to use them.
Any big commercial sites will stay reachable with IPv4 for a long time, certainly until IPv6 has been well established for a couple of years,
We've all been here before. The same thing will happen globally as happened in thousands of networks with IPX, Appletalk and DECNet. IPv4 remains only on sufferance. The alternative rapidly becomes vastly more attractive as the connectedness of the new protocol snowballs. Pressure builds from inside and out, and - way sooner than anyone expected - there is a sort of communal sigh of relief and the old stuff gets quietly dropped. I wonder what landmarks we should designate as "IPv4 is done" - Google dropping support for IPv4? And I wonder what the landmarks for the beginning of the end would be - Windows 15 coming out with IPv4 disabled by default? Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) GPG fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156 Old fingerprint: 07F3 1DF9 9D45 8BCD 7DD5 00CE 4A44 6A03 F43A 7DEF
participants (10)
-
Antonio M. Moreiras -
Bill Stewart -
Brandon Kim -
Brandon Penglase -
Jens Link -
Karl Auer -
Mark Andrews -
Todd Christell -
Tony Hoyle -
Xiaoliang Zhao