More hardware design (was Re: GigaRouter)
[Figured it was about time to change the subject line...] Speaking of hardware design, I've got a few misc. questions and comments. These are geared towards building servers for remote use that are *not* routers, but rather light- to medium-load webservers and the like. Does anyone know of a *small* rackmount case for PCs? By this I mean one that doesn't chew up quite so much vertical room as the usual boxes. Does anyone know where to get a CPU card with integrated SCSI and video? Alternatively, integrated SCSI and ethernet. I know about the PEAK 520S. TJLS claims that it's got serious problems, and even if it does work, it uses the SIS chipset, and thus loses big on memory access. I want something that can boot NetBSD or BSDI. One of the annoying problems using an intel box instead of a sun is that there's no real console. If it dies, the only way to kick it remotely is with a remote-control power switch. These are expensive and unwieldy, not mounting nicely in racks. In lieu of a real remote console like the one I described in a recent message, Thor and I cooked up the notion of a user-mode demon that tickles a watchdog timer every few seconds. (This is better than putting it in the kernel or init, for a whole lot of reasons.) This will at least deal with the need to reset a box when it dies. But I don't know where to get ISA cards that are just watchdog timers (many CPU cards do come with timers built in). I'll be doing some research today but if anyone knows where to get them, or has any experience using them, I'd love to hear about it. BTW, Thor's already gotten such a demon running under SCO. Doing it on NetBSD and other Unixes looks to be trivial. Lastly, I've seen this really neat rackmount chassis from Multitech. It's got 22 ISA slots, severable into up to 9 parts, and enough drive bays to actually run 9 separate servers. If you're looking for maximal density it seems like a good bet. The only problem I can see is that you'll need CPUs with both SCSI and viseo on board (thus my first question) unless you're willing to run on IDE drives. I figure that for light or medium-use servers, ethernet over ISA should be fine. To really make this thing smooth, you'd want a box that can switch a floppy cable nine different ways, since there's only room for one floppy in the case. This doesn't seem very hard, conceptually, but I don't know of anyone who makes such a device. I wonder if any existing switch could be adapted to the purpose? I don't remember how many pins are actually used by one floppy, but I suspect less than 25. If so, there are true 25-line switches available that might do the job. (Black Box has 6-to-1 25-pin switches for $90, and I'm sure they could do a 9-1 if you asked, though at a typically high price. I don't know if the floppies could stand the noise caused by all the cable changes. And you'd need DB-25 to floppy adaptor cables.) MultiTech's working on a PCI model, too, but I don't know anything about it. All other things being equal, this would allow you to use a CPU card with enet and video, since running SCSI over PCI isn't the lose that it is over ISA. /a
Au contriare, mon frere.
[Figured it was about time to change the subject line...]
Speaking of hardware design, I've got a few misc. questions and comments. These are geared towards building servers for remote use that are *not* routers, but rather light- to medium-load webservers and the like.
Does anyone know of a *small* rackmount case for PCs? By this I mean one that doesn't chew up quite so much vertical room as the usual boxes.
Yes, look in computer shopper. There are some short rack-mount PCs. I'm trying to get pricing on them now. And Crystal makes dream rackmounts; 4 across, 8 down in a 7' x 19" rack. But I suspect they're hideously expensive. They use passive backplanes :( They refused to even give me a price on just "how much for the case, power supply, backplane, and processor card w/ no cpu or memory"? I explained that we had to decide on a standard now for colo customers, that people walk in with 3' high tower cases and we go "nonononono". (Those that don't accept our advise and get Suns).
One of the annoying problems using an intel box instead of a sun is that there's no real console. If it dies, the only way to kick it remotely is with a remote-control power switch. These are expensive and unwieldy, not mounting nicely in racks.
I think I told you about these :) $500 or so from Black Box, 15 or 20amps across the whole switch, but it's code-activated and has 8 outlets. I guess you'd probably plug it into a terminal server port. I looked at x.10 systems, but 3 digits of security on the dtmf-parsing security does not cut it.
Lastly, I've seen this really neat rackmount chassis from Multitech. It's got 22 ISA slots, severable into up to 9 parts, and enough drive bays to actually run 9 separate servers. If you're looking for maximal density it seems like a good bet. The only problem I can see is that you'll need CPUs with both SCSI and viseo on board (thus my first question) unless you're willing to run on IDE drives. I figure that for light or medium-use servers, ethernet over ISA should be fine.
Roughly how much?
/a
Avi
Avi Freedman writes:
[Alexis writes:]
Does anyone know of a *small* rackmount case for PCs? By this I mean one that doesn't chew up quite so much vertical room as the usual boxes.
Yes, look in computer shopper. There are some short rack-mount PCs. I'm trying to get pricing on them now.
Neat, you can tell me what you learn. :-)
And Crystal makes dream rackmounts; 4 across, 8 down in a 7' x 19" rack. But I suspect they're hideously expensive. They use passive backplanes :(
I've seen these. If you're going that route, you can use the Multitech case or others with separable ISA backplanes. You'll get about the same density, and I think it works out a whole lot cheaper.
One of the annoying problems using an intel box instead of a sun is that there's no real console. If it dies, the only way to kick it remotely is with a remote-control power switch. These are expensive and unwieldy, not mounting nicely in racks.
I think I told you about these :) $500 or so from Black Box, 15 or 20amps across the whole switch, but it's code-activated and has 8 outlets. I guess you'd probably plug it into a terminal server port. [...]
Yes, in fact I noticed this while I was checking their catalog for the switch info. 15amps, which is enough for 8 Intel CPUs, as long as you're not running 4GB drives on each one.
Lastly, I've seen this really neat rackmount chassis from Multitech. It's got 22 ISA slots, severable into up to 9 parts, and enough drive bays to actually run 9 separate servers. If you're looking for maximal density it seems like a good bet. The only problem I can see is that you'll need CPUs with both SCSI and viseo on board (thus my first question) unless you're willing to run on IDE drives. I figure that for light or medium-use servers, ethernet over ISA should be fine.
Roughly how much?
Um, well, I've run machines taking a few million web hits a day using ISA Ethernet boards. I doubt you could push a machine to the wall without using more than a T1. Maybe several T1s. /a
If you open up Cisco's PIX box, you will find that it is a PCI based motherboard with an ISA card that looks to the system like a drive. The ISA card has flash on it where you save off configurations and boot off of. When the box wakes up, it just boots off the ISA card. The only other cards in it are your NIC cards (ETHERNET, FAST-ETHERNET or TokenRING). IT is very clean and the only moving part is the floppy drive that is under a cover with a lock. :-) --blast %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \ Tim Keanini | "The limits of my language, / / | are the limits of my world." \ \ blast@broder.com | --Ludwig Wittgenstein / \ +================================================/ |Key fingerprint = 7B 68 88 41 A8 74 AB EC F0 37 98 4C 37 F7 40 D6 | / PUB KEY: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-commands.html \ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Tim Keanini writes:
If you open up Cisco's PIX box, you will find that it is a PCI based motherboard with an ISA card that looks to the system like a drive. The ISA card has flash on it where you save off configurations and boot off of. When the box wakes up, it just boots off the ISA card. The only other cards in it are your NIC cards (ETHERNET, FAST-ETHERNET or TokenRING).
IT is very clean and the only moving part is the floppy drive that is under a cover with a lock. :-)
I suspect that the Compaq IOS box looks about the same. Has anyone used one of those? /a
I missed the beginning of this thread, but so I don't know if this is a hardware or software thread. :) That said, about 10 days ago we installed our first Cisco with 11.2 / NAT (NAT is the software the PIX runs). I must say, it was unbelievable. Nice to have all of that function without having another node on the network. Our customer had an international WAN with unassigned IP addresses. NAT handled it like a champ and only took about 20 minutes to configure... On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alexis Rosen wrote:
Tim Keanini writes:
If you open up Cisco's PIX box, you will find that it is a PCI based motherboard with an ISA card that looks to the system like a drive. The ISA card has flash on it where you save off configurations and boot off of. When the box wakes up, it just boots off the ISA card. The only other cards in it are your NIC cards (ETHERNET, FAST-ETHERNET or TokenRING).
IT is very clean and the only moving part is the floppy drive that is under a cover with a lock. :-)
I suspect that the Compaq IOS box looks about the same. Has anyone used one of those?
/a
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Derek Elder wrote: It is worth saying that the NAT functionality in 11.2 IOS is just NAT. Meaning, it does address translation. The PIX (Private Internet Exchange) does NAT but it also offers you a statefull security policy applied to packets crossing the PIX. This feature (and the encrypted links) is what makes the PIX box popular with Network Security Weenies who need security policy applied to packets at 100base-T. I thought it might be helpful mentioning this point because everytime someone says PIX, some other person says 11.2 IOS. :-) I can't wait to play with 11.2 myself. It is up on the whiteboard. :-) --blast
I missed the beginning of this thread, but so I don't know if this is a hardware or software thread. :) That said, about 10 days ago we installed our first Cisco with 11.2 / NAT (NAT is the software the PIX runs). I must say, it was unbelievable. Nice to have all of that function without having another node on the network.
Our customer had an international WAN with unassigned IP addresses. NAT handled it like a champ and only took about 20 minutes to configure...
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alexis Rosen wrote:
Tim Keanini writes:
If you open up Cisco's PIX box, you will find that it is a PCI based motherboard with an ISA card that looks to the system like a drive. The ISA card has flash on it where you save off configurations and boot off of. When the box wakes up, it just boots off the ISA card. The only other cards in it are your NIC cards (ETHERNET, FAST-ETHERNET or TokenRING).
IT is very clean and the only moving part is the floppy drive that is under a cover with a lock. :-)
I suspect that the Compaq IOS box looks about the same. Has anyone used one of those?
/a
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \ Tim Keanini | "The limits of my language, / / | are the limits of my world." \ \ blast@broder.com | --Ludwig Wittgenstein / \ +================================================/ |Key fingerprint = 7B 68 88 41 A8 74 AB EC F0 37 98 4C 37 F7 40 D6 | / PUB KEY: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-commands.html \ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
Yes, look in computer shopper. There are some short rack-mount PCs. I'm trying to get pricing on them now. And Crystal makes dream rackmounts; 4 across, 8 down in a 7' x 19" rack. But I suspect they're hideously expensive. They use passive backplanes :(
We use rack-mount PC case from Intergrand, they are $300 with a 250 watt power supply.
They refused to even give me a price on just "how much for the case, power supply, backplane, and processor card w/ no cpu or memory"? I explained that we had to decide on a standard now for colo customers, that people walk in with 3' high tower cases and we go "nonononono". (Those that don't accept our advise and get Suns).
Ya, we try to get all our colos to use the Intergrand box, we sell them at cost just to keep it nice and neat. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
Yes, look in computer shopper. There are some short rack-mount PCs. I'm trying to get pricing on them now. And Crystal makes dream rackmounts; 4 across, 8 down in a 7' x 19" rack. But I suspect they're hideously expensive. They use passive backplanes :(
We use rack-mount PC case from Intergrand, they are $300 with a 250 watt power supply.
Are they the short ones - about 5.25" or so in height?
They refused to even give me a price on just "how much for the case, power supply, backplane, and processor card w/ no cpu or memory"? I explained that we had to decide on a standard now for colo customers, that people walk in with 3' high tower cases and we go "nonononono". (Those that don't accept our advise and get Suns).
Ya, we try to get all our colos to use the Intergrand box, we sell them at cost just to keep it nice and neat.
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
Avi
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Avi Freedman wrote: ..chop
Yes, look in computer shopper. There are some short rack-mount PCs. I'm trying to get pricing on them now. And Crystal makes dream rackmounts; 4 across, 8 down in a 7' x 19" rack. But I suspect they're hideously expensive. They use passive backplanes :(
They refused to even give me a price on just "how much for the case, power supply, backplane, and processor card w/ no cpu or memory"? I explained that we had to decide on a standard now for colo customers, that people walk in with 3' high tower cases and we go "nonononono". (Those that don't accept our advise and get Suns).
They're pretty costly, but they run cool, take up wee space and use only 65 watts for the CS500 standard version. We've standardized on them for our colo recommendation. They charge about $2700 for a case, power supply, passive backplane, floppy drive and P120 CPU card that comes with video and all the basic ports. We always source the hard drive and memory separately due to their exorbitant rates. I never priced one out without the CPU though I was thinking I'd ask about that next time I call. They're CPU prices are the most outrageous part, and I keep reminding them that they're out of line with the industry by a mile. The price differential between the P120 and the P166 for example is $900! You can get a P200 Pro for less than that. ...chop Dan
They're pretty costly, but they run cool, take up wee space and use only 65 watts for the CS500 standard version. We've standardized on them for our colo recommendation. They charge about $2700 for a case, power supply, passive backplane, floppy drive and P120 CPU card that comes with video and all the basic ports. We always source the hard drive and memory separately due to their exorbitant rates. I never priced one out without the CPU though I was thinking I'd ask about that next time I call. They're CPU prices are the most outrageous part, and I keep reminding them that they're out of line with the industry by a mile. The price differential between the P120 and the P166 for example is $900! You can get a P200 Pro for less than that.
...chop
Dan
If you have any luck getting CPU-less pricing from them, please tell me or nanog@. These are VERY nice colo boxes. Avi
I didn't get an exact quote, but it's around $1800 for a case, ps, fd, backplane and CPU card without the CPU. Be aware the CS500 has space for only one low profile hard drive unless you take out the floppy. It has 2 ISA, 2 PCI and one ISA/PCI slot for the CPU card. Nice box, but costly when you consider for the same price you can get a box with similar specs PLUS 32 MB RAM, 3 GB HD, Pentium Pro 200 CPU. On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
They're pretty costly, but they run cool, take up wee space and use only 65 watts for the CS500 standard version. We've standardized on them for our colo recommendation. They charge about $2700 for a case, power supply, passive backplane, floppy drive and P120 CPU card that comes with video and all the basic ports. We always source the hard drive and memory separately due to their exorbitant rates. I never priced one out without the CPU though I was thinking I'd ask about that next time I call. They're CPU prices are the most outrageous part, and I keep reminding them that they're out of line with the industry by a mile. The price differential between the P120 and the P166 for example is $900! You can get a P200 Pro for less than that.
...chop
Dan
If you have any luck getting CPU-less pricing from them, please tell me or nanog@. These are VERY nice colo boxes.
Avi
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alexis Rosen wrote:
In lieu of a real remote console like the one I described in a recent message, Thor and I cooked up the notion of a user-mode demon that tickles a watchdog timer every few seconds. (This is better than putting it in the kernel or init, for a whole lot of reasons.) This will at least deal with the need to reset a box when it dies. But I don't know where to get ISA cards that are just watchdog timers (many CPU cards do come with timers built in).
Check out http://www.etinc.com You'll find watchdog timers and other goodies that come in handy building routers or even racks of WWW servers (Ethernet bandwidth limiter). Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Michael Dillon wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Alexis Rosen wrote:
In lieu of a real remote console like the one I described in a recent message, Thor and I cooked up the notion of a user-mode demon that tickles a watchdog timer every few seconds. (This is better than putting it in the kernel or init, for a whole lot of reasons.) This will at least deal with the need to reset a box when it dies. But I don't know where to get ISA cards that are just watchdog timers (many CPU cards do come with timers built in).
Check out http://www.etinc.com You'll find watchdog timers and other goodies that come in handy building routers or even racks of WWW servers (Ethernet bandwidth limiter).
Yep, we use them on our current routers, they are very good. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
participants (7)
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Alexis Rosen -
Avi Freedman -
Dan -
Derek Elder -
Michael Dillon -
Nathan Stratton -
Tim Keanini