Hi, How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones? Just curious. You can ignore me if you want. That's okay. Jane
On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 03:37:56PM -0400, pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com said:
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
If the network is down, the phone is critical. For any complicated problem, the phone is also critical. If the phone network is down too, a cell phone may also be important. There's no substitute for an actual face-to-face conversation, either. -- Scott Francis darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t Systems/Network Manager sfrancis@ [work:] t o n o s . c o m GPG public key 0xCB33CCA7 illum oportet crescere me autem minui
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:42:23 -0700 Scott Francis <darkuncle@darkuncle.net> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 03:37:56PM -0400, pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com said:
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
If the network is down, the phone is critical. For any complicated problem, the phone is also critical.
and in particular, one point that the inexperienced often overlook, but probably 99% of the readership of this list is familiar with, is that a modem in a remote equipment cabinet is a good thing, as when you blow a router config and it stops talking to the network, dialing into it via said modem is the only quick path to saving your job. richard -- Richard Welty rwelty@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
Scott Francis wrote:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 03:37:56PM -0400, pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com said:
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
If the network is down, the phone is critical. For any complicated problem, the phone is also critical. If the phone network is down too, a cell phone may also be important.
For key suppliers it's important that: 1. You have a cell phone with a provider who uses a diverse fibre path to your core data suppliers. 2. Your supplier has at least one contact number that doesn't depend on their own network, so you can call them when there's a fibre cut. In Australia, our second largest telco has their mobile (cell) phone network, land lines (including their support line indial), long distance services, intelligent network services (1300 number routing) and internet services all depend on the one SONET ring. A ring that was once cut in two locations within 12 hours (before the repair was finished on the first location, the second location was cut). That pretty much wiped them off the map Australia-wide (their whole phone and data network couldn't operate without key central services) for a considerable amount of time. Hopefully they've identified this central point of failure now, and the one massive failure will be the only one we experience from them, but it's hard to know as simultaneous fibre cuts on both sides of a SONET ring (hundreds or thousands of kilometers apart) are somewhat rare. The same telco also has only a single fibre path to Perth, which meant when I used to be in Perth, whenever they had a fibre cut we couldn't call them - all we could do was bring up our backup links to another telco and send/receive email relating to the fibre cut. (There's actually two fibre paths to Perth, one owned by the largest Australian telco & ISP, one by the second largest telco & ISP, but they don't appear to have engaged in fibre swaps with each other on this path. A lot of companies who aren't aware of the small number of fibre paths buy their primary service from one of these telcos and a secondary service from a smaller telco, and then are surprised when both services fail at once...) David.
-----Original Message----- From: Pawlukiewicz Jane
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
on 9/11 most telco lines into and out of NYC were congested or non-functioning. Even cell phones were impacted because they ultimately use wirelines. But, not withstanding all of the telco problems.... AIM, IRC, and email worked best for communications. Now, whether or not you would be able to solve problems without vocal communications remains to be seen. Ultimately it revolves around having the ability to adequately define the problem in writing as well as having good a reader ready to interpret your message. -Jim P.
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Pawlukiewicz Jane wrote:
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
Just curious.
You can ignore me if you want. That's okay.
I probably should take your advice, but that's an interestingly ambiguous question so I'll indulge on a slow Friday afternoon. Anything to derail that spews thread. "phone" is a tricky word. By phone do you mean an actual handset? Or do you mean a handset with a pots line? Or does your definition include voip? Or do you mean "phone" to encompass all audio communication devices? Or do you mean "phones" to represent the entire PSTN? What kind of situation are you referring to? A small bowel accident? Or a fiber cut? Your kid got in a fight at school? Or are most of your frame relay circuits bouncing? Basically, anybody can answer whatever they want based on the lack of detail in the question. I'd love to take both sides of the bet so I can collect from both you and your boss... Andy xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Andy Dills 301-682-9972 Xecunet, LLC www.xecu.net xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access
Andy Dills wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Pawlukiewicz Jane wrote:
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
Just curious.
You can ignore me if you want. That's okay.
I probably should take your advice, but that's an interestingly ambiguous question so I'll indulge on a slow Friday afternoon. Anything to derail that spews thread.
"phone" is a tricky word. By phone do you mean an actual handset? Or do you mean a handset with a pots line? Or does your definition include voip? Or do you mean "phone" to encompass all audio communication devices? Or do you mean "phones" to represent the entire PSTN?
What kind of situation are you referring to? A small bowel accident? Or a fiber cut? Your kid got in a fight at school? Or are most of your frame relay circuits bouncing?
Basically, anybody can answer whatever they want based on the lack of detail in the question. I'd love to take both sides of the bet so I can collect from both you and your boss...
I bet you could. By "phone" I mean PSTN and by situation, I mean something involving a SNAFU on your network (excuse me, IP network), another network your network depends on. Clear?
Andy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Andy Dills 301-682-9972 Xecunet, LLC www.xecu.net xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access
Thanks for not ignoring me ;) Jane BTW, what does FIARK mean?
Thus spake "Pawlukiewicz Jane" <pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com>
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
Just curious.
The problem is typically locating the person you need to communicate with, not the medium. Telephone has the advantage of speed, and IM/IRC has the advantage of easy multitasking. Probably a draw in many situations. S
IM/IRC/email also has the ability to copy/paste text, so it's a lot easier than trying to tell someone something complex over the phone (command to type in, circuit ID, TT# or such). - James
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Sprunk Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 4:38 PM To: Pawlukiewicz Jane; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Bet on with my boss
Thus spake "Pawlukiewicz Jane" <pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com>
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
Just curious.
The problem is typically locating the person you need to communicate with, not the medium.
Telephone has the advantage of speed, and IM/IRC has the advantage of easy multitasking. Probably a draw in many situations.
S
We recently had a piece of equipment fail outside of Bronson, FL. This was in a regeneration hut, 50 miles from almost anywhere useful. There is no cellular service and no POTs in the HUT. The closest employee was a woman who although bright was not very familiar with the equipment installed. Because the management channel (IP) was still working to the site, an engineer here in Quincy, MA was able to step her through fixing the problem using nothing but IRC and two-way pager. It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue. Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess. -vb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawlukiewicz Jane" <pawlukiewicz_jane@bah.com> To: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Bet on with my boss
Hi,
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
Just curious.
You can ignore me if you want. That's okay.
Jane
Regards, -- Martin Hannigan hannigan@fugawi.net Boston, MA http://www.fugawi.net On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Vincent J. Bono wrote:
We recently had a piece of equipment fail outside of Bronson, FL. This was in a regeneration hut, 50 miles from almost anywhere useful. There is no cellular service and no POTs in the HUT. The closest employee was a woman who although bright was not very familiar with the equipment installed. Because the management channel (IP) was still working to the site, an engineer here in Quincy, MA was able to step her through fixing the problem using nothing but IRC and two-way pager. It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue.
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
-vb
Regards, -- Martin Hannigan hannigan@fugawi.net Boston, MA http://www.fugawi.net On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Vincent J. Bono wrote:
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
That's it. I'm giving semaphore classes at the BBQ. :)
Martin Hannigan wrote:
Regards,
-- Martin Hannigan hannigan@fugawi.net Boston, MA http://www.fugawi.net
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Vincent J. Bono wrote:
We recently had a piece of equipment fail outside of Bronson, FL. This was in a regeneration hut, 50 miles from almost anywhere useful. There is no cellular service and no POTs in the HUT. The closest employee was a woman who although bright was not very familiar with the equipment installed. Because the management channel (IP) was still working to the site, an engineer here in Quincy, MA was able to step her through fixing the problem using nothing but IRC and two-way pager. It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue.
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
-vb
Regards,
-- Martin Hannigan hannigan@fugawi.net Boston, MA http://www.fugawi.net
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Vincent J. Bono wrote:
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
That's it. I'm giving semaphore classes at the BBQ. :)
BBQ? really? When? Where? Jane
We have this wonderful invention called two-way radio. (grin) Our repeater has an autopatch, so you can hold a conversation from any landline to the mobile unit in the field or vice versa. Its been real helpful, like when aligning microwave dishes. At 18:04 6/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
We recently had a piece of equipment fail outside of Bronson, FL. This was in a regeneration hut, 50 miles from almost anywhere useful. There is no cellular service and no POTs in the HUT. The closest employee was a woman who although bright was not very familiar with the equipment installed. Because the management channel (IP) was still working to the site, an engineer here in Quincy, MA was able to step her through fixing the problem using nothing but IRC and two-way pager. It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue.
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
-vb
Some sort of orderwire channel might be helpful in this situation as well, as long as the fiber is up, youll have a voice grade line to the NOC.
b> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:43:30 -0400 b> From: blitz <blitz@macronet.net> b> Some sort of orderwire channel might be helpful in this b> situation as well, as long as the fiber is up, youll have a b> voice grade line to the NOC. SONET provides for a (couple?) DS0 channels in the headers. Eddy -- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap <blacklist@brics.com> To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature. These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to <blacklist@brics.com>, or you are likely to be blocked.
You're thinking of the path trace buffer, and it's 64K, one DS0 channel. -C
SONET provides for a (couple?) DS0 channels in the headers.
Eddy -- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap <blacklist@brics.com> To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature.
These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to <blacklist@brics.com>, or you are likely to be blocked.
My understanding is that there are two orderwire circuits on any (vendor supported) SONET transmission system, E1 and E2. E1 allows for SOH orderwire between SONET sections (Regen sites/Huts), E2 allows for LOH orderwire between SONET line terminating equipment (adm). I don't see any way to utilize the 64k in J1 (Path Trace), as J1 contains a repeated fixed-length string. Is there any equipment which provides for a path layer orderwire in the SPE? Joe --- Joe Wood Accretive Networks, Inc. Senior Network Engineer Network Operations <joew@accretive-networks.net> 2001 Sixth Avenue, Suite 3302 206.269.0190x221 Seattle WA 98121 On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Chris Woodfield wrote:
You're thinking of the path trace buffer, and it's 64K, one DS0 channel.
-C
SONET provides for a (couple?) DS0 channels in the headers.
Eddy -- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap <blacklist@brics.com> To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature.
These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to <blacklist@brics.com>, or you are likely to be blocked.
JW> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:59:52 -0700 (PDT) JW> From: Joe Wood JW> My understanding is that there are two orderwire circuits on JW> any (vendor supported) SONET transmission system, E1 and E2. JW> E1 allows for SOH orderwire between SONET sections (Regen JW> sites/Huts), E2 allows for LOH orderwire between SONET line JW> terminating equipment (adm). If all else fails, read the manual... Yes, E1 and E2 are the DS0 channels of which I was thinking. Eddy -- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap <blacklist@brics.com> To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature. These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to <blacklist@brics.com>, or you are likely to be blocked.
Sycamore equipment does not have orderwire. :( And we don't breakout with the muxes that do at every location. ----- Original Message ----- From: "blitz" <blitz@macronet.net> To: "Vincent J. Bono" <vbono@vinny.org> Cc: <nanog@trapdoor.merit.edu> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Bet on with my boss
We have this wonderful invention called two-way radio. (grin) Our repeater has an autopatch, so you can hold a conversation from any landline to the mobile unit in the field or vice versa. Its been real helpful, like when aligning microwave dishes.
At 18:04 6/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
We recently had a piece of equipment fail outside of Bronson, FL. This
in a regeneration hut, 50 miles from almost anywhere useful. There is no cellular service and no POTs in the HUT. The closest employee was a woman who although bright was not very familiar with the equipment installed. Because the management channel (IP) was still working to the site, an engineer here in Quincy, MA was able to step her through fixing the
was problem
using nothing but IRC and two-way pager. It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue.
Harder than with a phone? Yes. Impossible? No. Without that IP channel running? It would have taken closer to an hour and a half by my guess but still doable. Smoke signals or semaphore? I won't hazard a guess.
-vb
Some sort of orderwire channel might be helpful in this situation as well, as long as the fiber is up, youll have a voice grade line to the NOC.
It took her 35 minutes to correct the issue. ^^^^^^^^^^
That's my "Rule of Nine," to wit: It takes nine times as long over the phone as it does in person. Where "it" consists of fixing something by typing commands. I fixed a bunch of badly destroyed disk mirrors once, at 3 a.m., with my eyes closed, lying in bed. Took 45 minutes. Would have taken 5 minutes if I were "driving". (But it couldn't reach the machine directly myself, so I stayed in bed and talked someone else through it.)
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, Pawlukiewicz Jane wrote:
How important is the phone to you? I mean, given some situation that arises, can we solve it without the phones?
The important thing is you have some way to communicate, not what method is used for the communication. If the PSTN fails, use the Internet. If the Internet fails use PSTN. If both fail use radio, telegraph, pony express or fall back to what the Roman Empire used, runners. Civilization has existed far longer than the telephone.
participants (16)
-
Andy Dills -
blitz -
Chris Woodfield -
David Luyer -
E.B. Dreger -
James -
Jim Hickstein -
Jim Popovitch -
Joe Wood -
Martin Hannigan -
Pawlukiewicz Jane -
Richard Welty -
Scott Francis -
Sean Donelan -
Stephen Sprunk -
Vincent J. Bono