Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month? Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote: |} Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are |} they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a |} generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month? At least part of the facility (1919 Gallows, P1) is on generator, or hasn't had a power outage recently. mae-east uptime is 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes -jh-
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
OK, market research time. If someone else were selling datacenter/colocation space in a high quality facility less than a mile from MAE-East, lit with MFS and several other bypass carriers, with its own GIGAswitches, would anybody reading this feel the urge to relocate their hub and just leave one 100Mb/s dark fibre over to MFS, meanwhile building preferred peerings with folks who took the same route? Assume that the costs were similar to what MFS charges, bearing in mind that more space would be available and you might want to pay for more of it since it would have 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC with UPS/generator, and all the rest of that kind of good goopy stuff. (Sigh, yes, it's true. I helped with DEC's Palo Alto thing, and now I've got the fever, and possibly the funding, but I don't know if it's worthwhile.)
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:
OK, market research time. If someone else were selling datacenter/colocation space in a high quality facility less than a mile from MAE-East, lit with MFS and several other bypass carriers, with its own GIGAswitches, would anybody reading this feel the urge to relocate their hub and just leave one 100Mb/s dark fibre over to MFS, meanwhile building preferred peerings with folks who took the same route? Assume that the costs were similar to what MFS charges, bearing in mind that more space would be available and you might want to pay for more of it since it would have 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC with UPS/generator, and all the rest of that kind of good goopy stuff.
Well I am building one, just not near MAE-East. I think that if I build one 1 mile away and had 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC, redundant fiber paths MFS and others, UPS/generator with redundant by-pass, and much more people would not move. I know that some would, but to make it work you would need to get Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS to move and I think that would be hard to do. Even if you were using my model and gave Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS free rack space and free gigaswitch port.
(Sigh, yes, it's true. I helped with DEC's Palo Alto thing, and now I've got the fever, and possibly the funding, but I don't know if it's worthwhile.)
Don't think it is. :-( Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:
Well I am building one, just not near MAE-East. I think that if I build one 1 mile away and had 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC, redundant fiber paths MFS and others, UPS/generator with redundant by-pass, and much more people would not move. I know that some would, but to make it work you would need to get Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS to move and I think that would be hard to do. Even if you were using my model and gave Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS free rack space and free gigaswitch port.
People should build robust enough infrastructure so that they don't rely on MAE-East so much. The current MAE-East is a disaster waiting to happen. Just hope that there isn't a flood in that area any time soon. Oh, speaking of environmental conditions, I hope folks who are on DC power check their wire. Last time I was there, most of them were hooked up using 10 amp wire and were running pretty hot. -dorian
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Dorian R. Kim wrote:
People should build robust enough infrastructure so that they don't rely on MAE-East so much. The current MAE-East is a disaster waiting to happen. Just hope that there isn't a flood in that area any time soon.
Oh, speaking of environmental conditions, I hope folks who are on DC power check their wire. Last time I was there, most of them were hooked up using 10 amp wire and were running pretty hot.
Hehe, ya I was in there not to long ago and that wire was very hot. I agree that you should build a network infrastructure so that when MAE-East is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems before it is a big disaster. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:
agree that you should build a network infrastructure so that when MAE-East is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems before it is a big disaster.
I guess I'm more fatalistic then you are. -dorian
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were using DC - everyone else was on AC. So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would switch. Maybe you would have better luck. As far as uptime goes - some folks have not seen any outages - Digex has been up for 3+ weeks; ICM for 2+ weeks. It does look like all BGP sessions reset 2days9hours ago. --asp@partan.com (Andrew Partan)
From: Andrew Partan <asp@partan.com> So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would switch. Maybe you would have better luck. You took the words right out of my mouth. -48vDC is *so* much cleaner and less troublesome than mains AC (or even upsed AC) that I urge all my clients to use it for *everything* whenever it's available. ---Rob
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Andrew Partan wrote:
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were using DC - everyone else was on AC.
So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would switch. Maybe you would have better luck.
The lame extended NetEdge thing, I am moving to a 7505 with and Cascade 9000 with a OC3c to my POP in Arlington. When I do that I will be DC. The DC is all battery backed, but it is not on a generator and has gone down many times.
As far as uptime goes - some folks have not seen any outages - Digex has been up for 3+ weeks; ICM for 2+ weeks. It does look like all BGP sessions reset 2days9hours ago. --asp@partan.com (Andrew Partan)
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Andrew Partan wrote:
The lame extended NetEdge thing
If you are using MFS provided gear & its dying due to lack of power - scream. This is bogus on MFS's part. Good luck getting off the NetEdge as fast as you can.
No, I just say lame extended NetEdge thing because many people say it does not work and will crash a lot. I have had no problem with it at all. And my NetEdge on the other end is at 8100 Boone so it is stable. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
Andrew Partan writes:
I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were using DC - everyone else was on AC.
So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would switch. Maybe you would have better luck.
I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating current late in the last century, and that by now it should be expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current. I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about, not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point. In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available. Perry
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
They do, its just that they are a telco & this is a telco facility they have *lots* more DC than AC. Telcos have been around for 100 years; they know how to do DC; they do it quite well; you might as well use what they got instead of wasting time fighting for what is 'right'. Its not like its all that hard to get the gear that ISPs use to run off of DC. --asp@partan.com (Andrew Partan)
Andrew Partan writes:
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
They do, its just that they are a telco & this is a telco facility they have *lots* more DC than AC.
Telcos have been around for 100 years; they know how to do DC; they do it quite well; you might as well use what they got instead of wasting time fighting for what is 'right'. Its not like its all that hard to get the gear that ISPs use to run off of DC.
I readily agree that if one has no choice one can get 48VDC equipment. The problem, as I see it, is that the overall cost of the facility providing battery backed up AC and people using standard mass produced equipment is substantially lower than the cost of the users all finding oddball power supplies and the facility providing DC. Furthermore, there is the issue of dramatically lowered convenience. Perhaps the telco folks don't have experience providing anything but 48VDC, but this really isn't rocket science. Besides, standby generators generally produce AC, and thats what one guesses one would have to go to if the area got hit by a hurricane or some such. Sure you can rectify AC, but again, why bother? Perry
Telcos have been around for 100 years; they know how to do DC; they do it quite well; you might as well use what they got instead of wasting time fighting for what is 'right'. Its not like its all that hard to get the gear that ISPs use to run off of DC.
I readily agree that if one has no choice one can get 48VDC equipment. The problem, as I see it, is that the overall cost of the facility providing battery backed up AC and people using standard mass produced equipment is substantially lower than the cost of the users all finding oddball power supplies and the facility providing DC. Furthermore, there is the issue of dramatically lowered convenience.
FYI Telehouse Europe in London which hosts LINX (London Internet Neutral Exchange) provides AC power by default (doubtless they will do DC power if you ask). They are both an FM facility for dealing rooms etc., have several colocated telcos, and lots of ISPs. We haven't (to my knowledge) had a single AC power failure since we've been there. They have the entire building UPSed with 2 very large glycol generators and enough fuel to last for at least 3 days. It's possible to do, and it works. And the price is from memory cheaper than MAE-East. Telehouse NY (same people) are also starting an IXP. It will be interesting to see how they compare. Alex Bligh Xara Networks
I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about, not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.
the bottom layers of the network (L2 and below) are mostly telco stuff and mostly (other than the gigaswitch) prefer DC power. DC power is what the box wants internally, and there's a lot less heat generated by making 5V and 12V out of 48VDC instead of 110VAC or 220VAC. if you visit a telco switching center and surround yourself with 10 Northern Telecom OC48 racks you should notice how quiet it seems.
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
i agree with this but it can't be exclusive. that's why dec's palo alto facility has both AC and DC, each of which is UPSed and generatored.
Paul A Vixie writes:
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
i agree with this but it can't be exclusive. that's why dec's palo alto facility has both AC and DC, each of which is UPSed and generatored.
Both is fine. Lots of telco equipment likes DC. However, having insufficient quantities of AC to meet the demand is what I think is silly. Installing UPSes isn't hard. Perry
oh, boy. let's make billions of dollars of battery backed up, dc powered facilities and force them to install ac backup. and all in the name of the all-mighty internet. telco facilites use dc power because it's the most efficient. dc powered equipment isn't that hard to come by. what's the dc power option on a cisco 75xx? about $350? Jeff Young young@mci.net
To: Paul A Vixie <vixie@wisdom.home.vix.com> cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:19:46 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu Content-Type: text Content-Length: 418
Paul A Vixie writes:
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
i agree with this but it can't be exclusive. that's why dec's palo alto facility has both AC and DC, each of which is UPSed and generatored.
Both is fine. Lots of telco equipment likes DC. However, having insufficient quantities of AC to meet the demand is what I think is silly. Installing UPSes isn't hard.
Perry
Perry E. Metzger wrote:
I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating current late in the last century, and that by now it should be expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current.
I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about, not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.
In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
aggreed, but: Take the following current paths: A. Commercial AC -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC) -> [battery] (DC) -> [inverter] (AC) -> [your equipment] (AC) -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC) B. Commercial AC -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC) -> [battery] (DC) -> [your equipment] (DC) The internal compenents of any transitorized equipment will need DC. It makes sense for the telco companies to use B. Otherwise they would just be adding ineffiencies. One could think of the telco's power system as a HUGE power supply that is just external :-). It is much more efficient to transmit AC at high voltages over long distances than DC. Given the fact that lots of networking equipment other than routers only support AC power, MFS should provide battery/generator backed AC power. Scott -- smace@neosoft.com - KC5NUA - Scott Mace - Network Engineer - Neosoft Inc. Any opinions expressed are mine.
Howdy, To stay in the tradition of the NANOG mailing list, I will take this subject a bit off topic. :-) The common American household and business operates on Alternating Current mainly because of distance. Over long distances, Alternating Current loses less energy in transferring energy than Direct Current. For proof, imagine the energy actually moving from point a -> point b (as in DC) or moving back and forth in millions of sets between points a and b. (and not moving as far) (as in AC). So, I think it's then important to question why telcos prefer to use DC power. DC power provides a smooth, less dynamic power source than does AC. W/ DC power you receive a constant flow of power, where w/ AC, the "sine" wave isn't, and the powered devices requires more capacitators and more engineering to use the energy. As well, backing up the equipment at remote (ruralish) facilities is relatively cheaper w/ DC than w/ AC. Now, back to the topic a bit. Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up. However, I believe it is. I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site. So, the question of what's causing the peer drops is interesting, and I'll be interested to see if it's MFS's equipment, or common oops-es by the neighbors at the colo site. Sure would be funny if some forgotten piece of equipment wasn't on backup (like Sean's modem, but more mission critical...) -alan ......... Perry E. Metzger is rumored to have said: ] ] ] Andrew Partan writes: ] > I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early ] > this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking ] > at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why ] > I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity ] > (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again ] > & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were ] > using DC - everyone else was on AC. ] > ] > So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would ] > switch. Maybe you would have better luck. ] ] I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating ] current late in the last century, and that by now it should be ] expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either ] operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current. ] ] I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates ] differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about, ] not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point. ] ] In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available. ] ] Perry ]
Alan Hannan <alan@gi.net> writes * So, the question of what's causing the peer drops is interesting, * and I'll be interested to see if it's MFS's equipment, or common * oops-es by the neighbors at the colo site. * * Sure would be funny if some forgotten piece of equipment wasn't on * backup (like Sean's modem, but more mission critical...) Hmm, I have had a router loose power twice this week, and two DSUs loose power (at different times than the router) twice this week as well. I think that is a bit much for a place like MAE-EAST. No matter whether it is AC or DC. -Marten ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Marten Terpstra Bay Networks, Inc. Internetwork Engineering 2 Federal St marten@BayNetworks.com Billerica, MA, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up. However, I believe it is.
I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.
If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator near the door. Yow. Do you feel the same way about air conditioning? Security? I believe that things like power, AC, and security (all reliable) are an essential part of a facility's infrastructure (and that's why PAIX has them). When engineered on a facility-wide scale you get a stable platform on which to build up successive layers, and you get economies of scale by solving the problem once for everyone. Stephen
Below. ] > Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core ] > infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up. ] > However, I believe it is. ] > ] > I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide ] > power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site. ] ] If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility ] infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I do see your point, and it is quite valid. However, I do not see the power responsibility to the individual's equipment as having the same level of assumption as the power responsibility of the provided medium. If the colo provider were to provide us w/ regular utility power, that should be adequate, and I can take the task of longevity and emergency state preparation by myself. Can, not want to. You describe an ideal situation, and a good one. I don't find that to be the "norm" today. ] I think ] that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient ] to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own ] (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough ] to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some ] of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone ] were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine ] everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator ] near the door. Yow. I've been involved in the trailer-mounted generator scenarios, and you are correct that solving this problem on a large scale is difficult w/out central control. ] Do you feel the same way about air conditioning? Security? I'd prefer to have my own cage, but I would expect some established level of provisioning by the provider. There's my point, that the level the provider is responsible for may well be less that the colo client desires. ] I believe that things like power, AC, and security (all reliable) are ] an essential part of a facility's infrastructure (and that's why PAIX ] has them). When engineered on a facility-wide scale you get a stable ] platform on which to build up successive layers, and you get economies ] of scale by solving the problem once for everyone. That's super. And I think PAIX's customers will appreciate it. I also think that PAIX's customers will pay that cost as it's built into the system, and that they will agree that it is a cost effective service to purchase. However, most of the colo's I'm aware of don't necessarily build (more than some modicum of) power/security into the package, and either leave it to the client or bill extra. I believe that all ISPs of merit should have the facilities provided above. I do believe it would benefit the "community" if they were provided by a central authority, ie the meet-point provider/vendor. I don't believe that the vendor is required to provide them... I ramble. -alan
Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up. However, I believe it is.
I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.
If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think
DC power is provided at all MFS facilities I'm aware of; the rub is that most of our gear is AC. Does anyone know of inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS colo sites.
that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator near the door. Yow.
Stephen
Avi
"Avi" == Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com> writes:
Avi> Does anyone know of Avi> inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is Avi> 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac? Yes, such equipment is readily available. Even telcos have *some* AC equipment! Check the yellow pages under Electronics; there's likely a local company that carries that stuff surplus. Also, you can check with your LXC to find out where they get equipment of that type. This is from memory, but I believe Lorain makes such equipment. -- Bruce Robertson, President/CEO Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. +1-702-348-7299 fax: +1-702-348-9412
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
DC power is provided at all MFS facilities I'm aware of; the rub is that most of our gear is AC. Does anyone know of inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS colo sites.
Lorian Power Systems, Lorain OH. makes fine DC-AC inverters. I have 2 10kva boxes in my shop. Turn 'em on and forget about it. They make smaller ones down to 1.5kva. Watch MFS's power surcharges though.
Avi
Patrick J. Chicas --------------------------------- URL: http://www.off-road.com Email: pjc@off-road.com ---------------------------------
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think
DC power is provided at all MFS facilities I'm aware of; the rub is that most of our gear is AC. Does anyone know of inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS colo sites.
Ok, I am not opening the GraybaR Power & Protection catalog..... Page 12-31 Square D Company Modle# Power Raiting Input Output Dimensions 6154-02 500 VA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 7x17x15 6114-02 1 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 7x17x15 6115-02 2 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 17.5x17x15 6224-02 3 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 17.5x17x15 Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
Ok, I am not opening the GraybaR Power & Protection catalog.....
Page 12-31 Square D Company
Modle# Power Raiting Input Output Dimensions 6154-02 500 VA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 7x17x15 6114-02 1 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 7x17x15 6115-02 2 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 17.5x17x15 6224-02 3 kVA -48 VDC 120/220/230/240 VAC 17.5x17x15
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
They told me the above would only work with "negative-ground" power, and that it specifically would not work with telco -48vdc which was configured as positive-ground. Avi
From: Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com> Does anyone know of inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac? Yes; Topaz makes 'em, as does AT&T (bet they're private-labeling someone else's gear though). I'd be surprised if Best didn't make one; you could check with Exie as well, or just look through the back of _Computer Telephony_ magazine. ---Rob
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS colo sites.
Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted. Also, if you have ever been to MAE-East, you might realize that one particular tenant that is effectively "sub-letted" in the facility would probably have a slim to none chance of getting such a thing installed. I suspect the DC to AC inverters are best for folks to try, but it would have been nice if MFS had addressed the issue in a more effecient manner when the new facility was constructed. Ed Morin Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505 (voice) Professional Internet Services edm@nwnexus.WA.COM
Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.
Also, if you have ever been to MAE-East, you might realize that one particular tenant that is effectively "sub-letted" in the facility
Eberything in the huge UUNET cage looked to be on DC...
would probably have a slim to none chance of getting such a thing installed. I suspect the DC to AC inverters are best for folks to try, but it would have been nice if MFS had addressed the issue in a more effecient manner when the new facility was constructed.
Ed Morin
Avi
Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.
At PAIX they put the generator on the roof and the fuel tank in the basement. The fuel pump has its own UPS and it's also on the building UPS. It takes a minute or two to pressurize the fuel line, but the UPSs could run the whole kaboodle for a lot longer than the generator's startup time. The permits would have been a huge problem had this building not once housed the Pac Bell CO for Palo Alto. But all we had to do was more or less exactly what they had done and the city agreed that if it had been OK for Pac Bell to do it, it was probably OK for Digital to do the same things.
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS colo sites.
Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.
We solved that as PAIX by having the main fuel tank in the basement, in a steel-reinforced cinder-block vault, with a "day tank" up on the roof; a redundant pair of pumps draw fuel from the basement up to the roof. The fire department liked it because there wasn't too much fuel on the roof, and the (whatever that other department was) liked it because the generator was on the roof (and the noise at ground level wouldn't be too great during weekly tests). Stephen
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Stephen Stuart wrote:
If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator near the door. Yow.
Do you feel the same way about air conditioning? Security?
With telecomm dereg as life, GTE Mobilnet in Hawaii is now selling co-lo space. We supply battery backed DC, battery fed - inverted DC to AC, all backed by a cat diesel generator. AirCon is fault tolerant as well. We supply locked cabinets or cages. We install your equipment (power connections etc.), you turn it up. We have UNIX and IP literate people with Bay, Cisco, BSDI, NT, USR TC, Ascend and Solaris experience on premise and, avail 24x7. GTE.net just co-lo'd their Hub for Hawaii, soon to be a NAP per their plans. Three other medium to large ISP's are there as well. Cheers Patrick J. Chicas --------------------------------- URL: http://www.off-road.com Email: pjc@off-road.com --------------------------------- Email me about FREE services to host your off-road motorsports oriented WWW site or mailing list.
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Alan Hannan wrote:
Howdy,
To stay in the tradition of the NANOG mailing list, I will take this subject a bit off topic. :-)
The common American household and business operates on Alternating Current mainly because of distance.
Over long distances, Alternating Current loses less energy in transferring energy than Direct Current. For proof, imagine the energy actually moving from point a -> point b (as in DC) or moving back and forth in millions of sets between points a and b. (and not moving as far) (as in AC).
I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to take if you touch the wire at high currents.
So, I think it's then important to question why telcos prefer to use DC power. DC power provides a smooth, less dynamic power source than does AC. W/ DC power you receive a constant flow of power, where w/ AC, the "sine" wave isn't, and the powered devices requires more capacitators and more engineering to use the energy. As well, backing up the equipment at remote (ruralish) facilities is relatively cheaper w/ DC than w/ AC.
Now, back to the topic a bit.
Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up. However, I believe it is.
I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.
I think it is. When you buy space at DEC they don't day well don't forget your APC because we don't have backed AC power or even a generator. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to take if you touch the wire at high currents.
My impression was that AC was used in power transmission because it's so easy to trade off voltage vs. current, and since the resistance in wire is related to current and not voltage, cranking the voltage to huge levels (easily done w/ AC w/ transformers) means very low (compared to DC) loss due to the internal resistance in the wires.
I think it is. When you buy space at DEC they don't day well don't forget your APC because we don't have backed AC power or even a generator.
Huh?
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
Avi
On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
is related to current and not voltage, cranking the voltage to huge levels (easily done w/ AC w/ transformers) means very low (compared to DC) loss due to the internal resistance in the wires.
I think it is. When you buy space at DEC they don't day well don't forget your APC because we don't have backed AC power or even a generator.
Huh?
Replace 'day' with 'say' and it makes more sense ;-) -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 http://www.uk.vbc.net VBCnet West +1 408 971 2682 fax +1 408 971 2684
I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to take if you touch the wire at high currents.
Sometime around the beginning of the 1900s Edison and Westinghouse were waging PR war over whether the country should adopt DC or AC. In an early preview of negative campaigning Edison appealed to public fear by noting that AC was used in electric chairs. Edison lost that fight, of course, but got his revenge from GE winning the long-term economic battle. Now that I can claim title to the most irrelevant NANOG posting in history, (intended) I return you all to the current battle ... -- Dick St.Peters, Gatekeeper, Pearly Gateway, Ballston Spa, NY stpeters@NetHeaven.com Owner, NetHeaven 518-885-1295/800-910-6671 Albany/Saratoga/Glens Falls/North Creek/Lake Placid/Blue Mountain Lake First Internet service based in the 518 area code
edison also used to refer to electrocution as "westinghousing people" Jeff Young young@mci.net
Return-Path: owner-nanog@merit.edu Received: from merit.edu (merit.edu [35.1.1.42]) by postoffice.Reston.mci.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00808; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by merit.edu (8.7.5/merit-2.0) with SMTP id WAA28765; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by merit.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:33 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by merit.edu (8.7.5/merit-2.0) id WAA28705 for nanog-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saint.heaven.net (saint.heaven.net [198.69.28.4]) by merit.edu (8.7.5/merit-2.0) with SMTP id WAA28697 for <nanog@merit.edu>; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from stpeters@localhost) by saint.heaven.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) id WAA16929; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:34 -0400 From: "Dick St.Peters" <stpeters@NetHeaven.com> Message-Id: <199609090248.WAA16929@saint.heaven.net> To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960908085543.19899D-100000@netrail.net> References: <199609080429.XAA10713@westie.gi.net> <Pine.LNX.3.95.960908085543.19899D-100000@netrail.net> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1102
I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to take if you touch the wire at high currents.
Sometime around the beginning of the 1900s Edison and Westinghouse were waging PR war over whether the country should adopt DC or AC. In an early preview of negative campaigning Edison appealed to public fear by noting that AC was used in electric chairs. Edison lost that fight, of course, but got his revenge from GE winning the long-term economic battle.
Now that I can claim title to the most irrelevant NANOG posting in history, (intended) I return you all to the current battle ...
-- Dick St.Peters, Gatekeeper, Pearly Gateway, Ballston Spa, NY stpeters@NetHeaven.com Owner, NetHeaven 518-885-1295/800-910-6671 Albany/Saratoga/Glens Falls/North Creek/Lake Placid/Blue Mountain Lake First Internet service based in the 518 area code
From: "Jeff Young" <young@mci.net> edison also used to refer to electrocution as "westinghousing people" I thought it was "sending them to the Westing House". Apparently he even got some newspapers to cover it that way... ---Rob
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
I can not wait to see this in next weeks info world.... Titled "Major Internet Exchange Point has no backup power!" --------------------------------------------------------------------- James D. Butt | voice 319.557.8463 Network Engineer | fax 319.557.9771 MidWest Communications, Inc. | pager 319.557.6347 241 Main St. | noc@mwci.net Dubuque, IA 52001 | email jbutt@mwci.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Lets fight against continental drift!" "I used up all my sick days... so I'm calling in dead"
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
I can not wait to see this in next weeks info world....
Titled "Major Internet Exchange Point has no backup power!"
James D. Butt | voice 319.557.8463
Has always had plenty of DC backup of course... Avi
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, James D. Butt 'J.D.' wrote:
Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
I can not wait to see this in next weeks info world....
Titled "Major Internet Exchange Point has no backup power!"
I never said they don't have backup power, just that they don't have a generator. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
participants (20)
-
Alan Hannan -
Alex.Bligh -
Andrew Partan -
Avi Freedman -
Bruce Robertson -
Dick St.Peters -
Dorian R. Kim -
Ed Morin -
James D. Butt 'J.D.' -
Jeff Young -
Jim Dixon -
Jonathan Heiliger -
Marten Terpstra -
Nathan Stratton -
Patrick J. Chicas -
Paul A Vixie -
Perry E. Metzger -
Robert E. Seastrom -
Scott Mace -
Stephen Stuart