Landing Stations used as datacenter
Hey there I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments.. I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually) Thank you in advance sharing your experience Mehmet -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Sometimes there isn't a choice, i.e. islands or other constrained geographies. But I am not a fan of combining cable landing stations and datacenters/internet exchange points either. I always want my IXPs and data centers to be connected to multiple cable systems, again maybe constrained by geographic concerns. I've also found the construction requirements of landing stations and data centers to be different. You almost always end up compromising one or the other when you combine them. Nevertheless, there are some countries and islands with only one landing station, and not enough domestic eyeballs to support major infrastructure deployment. It might be better than nothing in those cases, but I would always prefer something else. None of those places would be in my top 20 list for deploying anything. Maybe if I needed to reach 120+ countries.
I can’t find a single cls that is a good peering spot Latam has level3 cls in chile which is good location and has lots of networks ixp. That is like only one I am aware, doing business is quite horrible there. Everything is over priced, slow burocraric. On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 19:18 Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Sometimes there isn't a choice, i.e. islands or other constrained geographies. But I am not a fan of combining cable landing stations and datacenters/internet exchange points either.
I always want my IXPs and data centers to be connected to multiple cable systems, again maybe constrained by geographic concerns. I've also found the construction requirements of landing stations and data centers to be different. You almost always end up compromising one or the other when you combine them.
Nevertheless, there are some countries and islands with only one landing station, and not enough domestic eyeballs to support major infrastructure deployment. It might be better than nothing in those cases, but I would always prefer something else. None of those places would be in my top 20 list for deploying anything. Maybe if I needed to reach 120+ countries.
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On Nov 15, 2019, at 5:42 AM, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote: I can’t find a single cls that is a good peering spot
Correct. The optimum location for peering is at the center of population density and the center of economic transaction density, since that minimizes average cable lengths to users. I’ve never observed a cable landing site in the downtown core of a metro area. -Bill
On 15/Nov/19 11:33, Bill Woodcock wrote:
Correct. The optimum location for peering is at the center of population density and the center of economic transaction density, since that minimizes average cable lengths to users. I’ve never observed a cable landing site in the downtown core of a metro area.
The closest you would get is coastal cities, but even then, a CLS just doesn't operate the same way as a data centre. Mark.
PPC-1 built by PIPE Networks, an Australian IX, fiber and carrier neutral colo provider, uses a CLS in Cromer NSW (“Sydney”) that is also a PIPE data center. Unfortunately PIPE got acquired by TPG and their IX platform is limping along on life support these days. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 14, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote: I can’t find a single cls that is a good peering spot Latam has level3 cls in chile which is good location and has lots of networks ixp. That is like only one I am aware, doing business is quite horrible there. Everything is over priced, slow burocraric. On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 19:18 Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com<mailto:sean@donelan.com>> wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Sometimes there isn't a choice, i.e. islands or other constrained geographies. But I am not a fan of combining cable landing stations and datacenters/internet exchange points either. I always want my IXPs and data centers to be connected to multiple cable systems, again maybe constrained by geographic concerns. I've also found the construction requirements of landing stations and data centers to be different. You almost always end up compromising one or the other when you combine them. Nevertheless, there are some countries and islands with only one landing station, and not enough domestic eyeballs to support major infrastructure deployment. It might be better than nothing in those cases, but I would always prefer something else. None of those places would be in my top 20 list for deploying anything. Maybe if I needed to reach 120+ countries. -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened. There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB. Best regards, Martijn On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote: Hey there I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments.. I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually) Thank you in advance sharing your experience Mehmet -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
Some Caribbean islands had IXs in landing stations early on IIRC. Usually before the island built it’s first datacenter. Some of them were better/faster about moving to the datacenter once it was established than others. Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 01:47 , Martijn Schmidt via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
Best regards, Martijn
On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters <https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters>
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I would think that just a few extra fractions of a second from the cable station to a DC/IX are better than a DC/IX near the beach where water can wipe it all out. Preferably DC/IX should be on the 2nd or third floor IMHO on some islands. - J On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 4:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Some Caribbean islands had IXs in landing stations early on IIRC. Usually before the island built it’s first datacenter.
Some of them were better/faster about moving to the datacenter once it was established than others.
Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 01:47 , Martijn Schmidt via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
Best regards, Martijn
On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
Fresh water might not be in your scope for the article, but I believe crosslakefibre.ca operates a link across Lake Ontario, Buffalo to Toronto at TORIX 151 Front Street, but you'd need to verify with them if indeed the landing comes directly into the facility, this may be the case though as lake water is used for cooling within the facility providing conduits already in place. Can't wait to read the article! Regards, Andrew Paolucci ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, November 15, 2019 6:20 PM, Javier J <javier@advancedmachines.us> wrote:
I would think that just a few extra fractions of a second from the cable station to a DC/IX are better than a DC/IX near the beach where water can wipe it all out. Preferably DC/IX should be on the 2nd or third floor IMHO on some islands.
- J
On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 4:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Some Caribbean islands had IXs in landing stations early on IIRC. Usually before the island built it’s first datacenter.
Some of them were better/faster about moving to the datacenter once it was established than others.
Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 01:47 , Martijn Schmidt via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
Best regards, Martijn
On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
--
Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I was neither defending, nor advocating the placement, merely attempting to document some of the history. Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 15:20 , Javier J <javier@advancedmachines.us> wrote:
I would think that just a few extra fractions of a second from the cable station to a DC/IX are better than a DC/IX near the beach where water can wipe it all out. Preferably DC/IX should be on the 2nd or third floor IMHO on some islands.
- J
On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 4:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: Some Caribbean islands had IXs in landing stations early on IIRC. Usually before the island built it’s first datacenter.
Some of them were better/faster about moving to the datacenter once it was established than others.
Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 01:47 , Martijn Schmidt via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
Best regards, Martijn
On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters <https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters>
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
Owen of course. I was just expressing my humble opinion to the thread. Cheers. On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 8:41 PM Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
I was neither defending, nor advocating the placement, merely attempting to document some of the history.
Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 15:20 , Javier J <javier@advancedmachines.us> wrote:
I would think that just a few extra fractions of a second from the cable station to a DC/IX are better than a DC/IX near the beach where water can wipe it all out. Preferably DC/IX should be on the 2nd or third floor IMHO on some islands.
- J
On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 4:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Some Caribbean islands had IXs in landing stations early on IIRC. Usually before the island built it’s first datacenter.
Some of them were better/faster about moving to the datacenter once it was established than others.
Owen
On Nov 15, 2019, at 01:47 , Martijn Schmidt via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
Best regards, Martijn
On 11/15/19 3:58 AM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On 15/Nov/19 11:47, Martijn Schmidt via NANOG wrote:
I think AMS-IX had an exchange in Mombasa in the SEACOM landing station at some point, but that is gone now. I'm not sure about the exact reasons there but someone here probably knows what happened.
Someone here definitely knows what happened :-\.
There's also a big amount of carriers in the TATA landing station in Mumbai, it is the second-largest in that market just behind GPX in terms of carrier density at least according to PeeringDB.
We know that one all too well :-). Mark.
On 15.11.2019 03:58, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
you may want to have a look at the presentation from Tan Tze Meng (MDEC) at last weeks Peering Asia 3.0 on "Malaysia: A New Submarine Cable Route" [0] where he shared ideas how to deal with CLS and DC. Cheers Arnold [0] https://www.peeringasia.com/agenda/, will be online in a couple of days -- Arnold Nipper email: arnold@nipper.de mobile: +49 172 2650958
usually the logistics and business models of traditional CLS and DC are different (Bill Woodcock laid it out). a few years ago i built a model for SWIFT that provided for dynamic remapping of lambda in the event of backhoe fade. Not exactly your DC, neutral IX form factor, but met the need at the time. I can dig up the DoT presentation if there is interest. /Wm On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 7:00 PM Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
Mehmet
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
A landing station is not typically carrier neutral and is not designed to have a huge of excess space to accommodate third parties. When I was at Hibernia Atlantic we would get from time to time a disaster recovery client, but there was not a lot of excess space available and so it was priced accordingly. It will be a very poor choice for most potential clients. Regards, Roderick. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of william manning <chinese.apricot@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2019 12:02 AM To: Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> Cc: nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Landing Stations used as datacenter usually the logistics and business models of traditional CLS and DC are different (Bill Woodcock laid it out). a few years ago i built a model for SWIFT that provided for dynamic remapping of lambda in the event of backhoe fade. Not exactly your DC, neutral IX form factor, but met the need at the time. I can dig up the DoT presentation if there is interest. /Wm On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 7:00 PM Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net<mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>> wrote: Hey there I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments.. I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually) Thank you in advance sharing your experience Mehmet -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On 17/Nov/19 19:39, Rod Beck wrote:
A landing station is not typically carrier neutral and is not designed to have a huge of excess space to accommodate third parties. When I was at Hibernia Atlantic we would get from time to time a disaster recovery client, but there was not a lot of excess space available and so it was priced accordingly. It will be a very poor choice for most potential clients.
Agreed. In some of our markets where carrier-neutral facilities do not exist next to our CLS's, we may still sell some space, until it runs out. We wouldn't typically add anymore because, well, that's not our core business. Where carrier-neutral data centres may exist, we encourage customers to got there, even if they feel being at the CLS is better than being at the data centre. Not a major drama since our Metro would hit the data centre anyway. Otherwise, we're always encouraging data centre operators to build facilities in our markets to take the obvious pent-up load. Mark.
On 15/Nov/19 04:58, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
Hey there
I have been putting my thoughts on Infrapedia blog and sharing with folks like
https://www.infrapedia.com/post/top20cities-datacenters
I am working on a new article and this time my topic will be looking at cable landing stations(cls). Do you consider cable landing stations as a datacenter? Do you have any experience deploying a pop in CLS? Are you able to share (on or off record) your experience which I can refer as your experience (good or bad) why deploying a pop inside a CLS is good or bad idea. Any additional comments..
I am not a big fan of CLS deployments. They have limited networks ( like only carriers and no eyeballs) and very expensive connectivity (usually)
Thank you in advance sharing your experience
As a submarine operator that "sometimes" sells co-lo space, in most cases, it would be because of a lack of choice. Every time a proper, carrier-neutral data centre has sprung up near the CLS, it becomes the natural place to deploy. Take Mombasa, for example. For a long time, the only co-lo facilities were CLS's. A new, carrier-neutral facility popped up, and we are encouraging all of our customers to either go there (new) or spill into there (if they want to expand). As a submarine cable operator, it's no fun running a CLS like a data centre. AC power, for example, is not generally standard. Space is limited. Access controls are different from normal data centre procedures. Manning by technical staff may not always be 24/7. I could go on. But, if you have no choice, and the CLS isn't trying to milk you for all your worth, then by all means. Mark.
participants (12)
-
andrew＠paolucci.ca -
Arnold Nipper -
Bill Woodcock -
Javier J -
Mark Tinka -
Martijn Schmidt -
Mehmet Akcin -
Nikolas Geyer -
Owen DeLong -
Rod Beck -
Sean Donelan -
william manning