Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. https://www.torix.ca/ A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website: https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
----- Mike Hammett <http://www.ics-il.com/>Intelligent Computing Solutions
<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>Midwest Internet Exchange
<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>The Brothers WISP
---------- From: "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> To: "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that donât have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.
Additionally, âNeutralâ and For-Profit doesnât always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by itâs members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability.
- Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
-- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
Torix and Six are great examples. If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton@mnsi.net> wrote:
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website:
https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
------------------------------ *From: *"Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.
Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability.
- Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
--
Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> Windsor, Ontario <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> N8W 1H4 <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-) At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> To: "Clayton Zekelman" <clayton@mnsi.net> Cc: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Torix and Six are great examples. If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clayton@mnsi.net > wrote: TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. https://www.torix.ca/ A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website: https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: <blockquote> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timothy@gmail.com > To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets. The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints. Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability. <blockquote> - Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns < bruns@2mbit.com > wrote:
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
</blockquote> -- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409 </blockquote> -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
http://micemn.net/services.html MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-)
At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> *To: *"Clayton Zekelman" <clayton@mnsi.net> *Cc: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
Torix and Six are great examples.
If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton@mnsi.net> wrote:
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website:
https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
------------------------------ *From: *"Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.
Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability.
- Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
--
Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> Windsor, Ontario <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> N8W 1H4 <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
-- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about "cost". They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps with cost. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX http://micemn.net/services.html MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-) At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > To: "Clayton Zekelman" < clayton@mnsi.net > Cc: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org >, "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timothy@gmail.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Torix and Six are great examples. If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clayton@mnsi.net > wrote: <blockquote> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. https://www.torix.ca/ A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website: https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: <blockquote> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timothy@gmail.com > To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets. The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints. Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability. <blockquote> - Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns < bruns@2mbit.com > wrote:
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
</blockquote> -- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409 </blockquote> -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> -- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook
The biggest difference we see is that the “non commercial” IX’s are now building metro fabrics across multiple different datacenter providers. When you look at the costs, you need to look at the colo as part of that cost also. Allowing datacenters to compete for space and power drives down the costs for end users while also allowing them to connect to the fabric. [https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/c4ed298e-00ea-415c-8059-9ce09ac88788/logo/f...] Robert DeVita Managing Director p: 214-305-2444 e: radevita@mejeticks.com<mailto:radevita@mejeticks.com> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/in/radevita/> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:11 AM To: Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> Cc: NANOG Mailing List <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about "cost". They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps with cost. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net<mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX http://micemn.net/services.html MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-) At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net<mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>> To: "Clayton Zekelman" <clayton@mnsi.net<mailto:clayton@mnsi.net>> Cc: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>>, "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com<mailto:raphael.timothy@gmail.com>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Torix and Six are great examples. If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton@mnsi.net<mailto:clayton@mnsi.net>> wrote: TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. https://www.torix.ca/ A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website: https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> ________________________________ From: "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com<mailto:raphael.timothy@gmail.com>> To: "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets. The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints. Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability. - Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com<mailto:bruns@2mbit.com>> wrote:
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org<http://www.sosdg.org/> / http://www.ahbl.org<http://www.ahbl.org/>
-- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E<https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> Windsor, Ontario<https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> N8W 1H4<https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409 -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 -- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com<http://www.mnwifi.com/> 507-634-WiFi [http://www.snoitulosten.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/facebook-small.jpg]<http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> Like us on Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
I think anyone not Equinix, DRT, CoreSite, etc. is building into multiple datacenter providers in their markets, some just more aggressively than others. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert DeVita" <radevita@mejeticks.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> Cc: "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:37:52 AM Subject: RE: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX The biggest difference we see is that the “non commercial” IX’s are now building metro fabrics across multiple different datacenter providers. When you look at the costs, you need to look at the colo as part of that cost also. Allowing datacenters to compete for space and power drives down the costs for end users while also allowing them to connect to the fabric. https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/c4ed298e-00ea-415c-8059-9ce09ac88788/logo/f... Robert DeVita Managing Director p: 214-305-2444 e: radevita@mejeticks.com http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.p... From: NANOG < nanog-bounces@nanog.org > On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:11 AM To: Darin Steffl < darin.steffl@mnwifi.com > Cc: NANOG Mailing List < nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about "cost". They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps with cost. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.steffl@mnwifi.com > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX http://micemn.net/services.html MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-) At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > To: "Clayton Zekelman" < clayton@mnsi.net > Cc: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org >, "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timothy@gmail.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX Torix and Six are great examples. If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clayton@mnsi.net > wrote: <blockquote> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. https://www.torix.ca/ A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website: https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: <blockquote> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timothy@gmail.com > To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets. The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints. Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability. <blockquote> - Tim
On 21 Dec 2018 , at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns < bruns@2mbit.com > wrote:
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
</blockquote> -- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409 </blockquote> -- Mehmet + 1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> -- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi Like us on Facebook
MICE is technically a cooperative not a non-profit. The fees cover the costs and just the costs and the members are owners. Also MICE does not provide any transport. All transport to remote locations is provided by the network hosting the remote switch. Jay On Fri, Dec 21, 2018, 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net wrote:
Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about "cost".
They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps with cost.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
http://micemn.net/services.html
MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit.
For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it costs. ;-)
At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once they're on the IX.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> *To: *"Clayton Zekelman" <clayton@mnsi.net> *Cc: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
Torix and Six are great examples.
If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton@mnsi.net> wrote:
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website:
https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
------------------------------ *From: *"Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.
Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability.
- Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
--
Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> Windsor, Ontario <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g> N8W 1H4 <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
-- Darin Steffl Minnesota WiFi www.mnwifi.com 507-634-WiFi <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
New rates for 2019 just posted yesterday! Get yer ports while they’re hot!
On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:14 AM, Clayton Zekelman <clayton@MNSi.Net> wrote:
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
https://www.torix.ca/ <https://www.torix.ca/>
A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their website:
https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing <https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing>
At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
From: "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com> To: "NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer services (such as extended reach) that donât have the same profit margins or ROI as for-profits. This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.
Additionally, âNeutralâ and For-Profit doesnât always compute in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. When a NFP is owned by itâs members there has to be 100% transparency in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures accountability reliability.
- Tim
On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard.
Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.
The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for who has the best service.
People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org <http://www.sosdg.org/> / http://www.ahbl.org <http://www.ahbl.org/>
--
Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4
tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
participants (7)
-
Clayton Zekelman -
Darin Steffl -
Jason Lixfeld -
Jay Hanke -
Mehmet Akcin -
Mike Hammett -
Robert DeVita