Correcting national address databases?
I'm guessing someone in the community has experience dealing with this. About 3 years ago my street got typo'd in some sort of national database of addresses. Two characters were transposed. i.e. "Mian St" vs "Main St". It's causing no end of issues with ordering online, pretty much every shipper has picked up the bad address, and some of the mapping tools too. Google and OSM appear to be the exceptions. Any idea where to go to get this fixed? -A
On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 4:12 PM Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'm guessing someone in the community has experience dealing with this.
About 3 years ago my street got typo'd in some sort of national database of addresses. Two characters were transposed. i.e. "Mian St" vs "Main St".
It's causing no end of issues with ordering online, pretty much every shipper has picked up the bad address, and some of the mapping tools too. Google and OSM appear to be the exceptions.
Any idea where to go to get this fixed?
In the US, I believe it's the USPS which maintains that database. They map all the addresses to the zip plus fours. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Bill is correct, you can check it at: https://tools.usps.com/zip-code-lookup.htm?byaddress On 5/29/24 8:17 PM, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 4:12 PM Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'm guessing someone in the community has experience dealing with this.
About 3 years ago my street got typo'd in some sort of national database of addresses. Two characters were transposed. i.e. "Mian St" vs "Main St".
It's causing no end of issues with ordering online, pretty much every shipper has picked up the bad address, and some of the mapping tools too. Google and OSM appear to be the exceptions.
Any idea where to go to get this fixed?
In the US, I believe it's the USPS which maintains that database. They map all the addresses to the zip plus fours.
Regards, Bill Herrin
Visit your local post office ask for the postmaster. They can’t fix it but should have a form to correct the database used by almost all shippers in the U.S. unfortunately may take 6 months to propagate changes. Can also call 1-800-275-8777 but usually local postmaster is helpful.
On May 29, 2024, at 7:14 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'm guessing someone in the community has experience dealing with this.
About 3 years ago my street got typo'd in some sort of national database of addresses. Two characters were transposed. i.e. "Mian St" vs "Main St".
It's causing no end of issues with ordering online, pretty much every shipper has picked up the bad address, and some of the mapping tools too. Google and OSM appear to be the exceptions.
Any idea where to go to get this fixed?
-A
That postal database is especially problematic for those who live in rural areas with no postal delivery. We need a better database system than the one that USPS maintains because it affects a wider range of services. Two years ago I moved to a house with no postal service, so I got a PO box in town for regular postal mail. I am able to get FedEx, UPS and other non-USPS package deliveries to my residence. Google Maps knows right where I live. For most purposes, this arrangement is fine. But not all.... The first thing I noticed is that Verizon Wireless was unable to update my 911 location to my physical address because they are pulling from the postal database. I tried working through Verizon support a couple different ways but no one knew how to fix it. I finally complained to the FCC and after a couple months someone at Verizon went in and manually updated my address. I'm sure other people are in the same boat. Yeah, hopefully E911 gets a fix in an emergency but I'm not counting on it, especially when I'm inside and I see the Maps application on my phone putting my location at a nearby cell tower. The next issue is that it is impossible to apply for credit cards and probably other loans online. The banks (more than one I've tried) use the postal database and do not recognize my street address and do not accept PO Box input. Another issue is that Amazon (and possibly other online retailers) are charging me and my neighbors excess sales tax based on the ZIP code associated with a town I do not live in. There's a way to complain and have it reversed.... for every single purchase. I know this is out of our hands as network operators, but maybe some day one of you will be in a position to help.
On May 29, 2024, at 7:14 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I'm guessing someone in the community has experience dealing with this.
About 3 years ago my street got typo'd in some sort of national database of addresses. Two characters were transposed. i.e. "Mian St" vs "Main St".
It's causing no end of issues with ordering online, pretty much every shipper has picked up the bad address, and some of the mapping tools too. Google and OSM appear to be the exceptions.
Any idea where to go to get this fixed?
-A
On 5/30/24 08:53, Mike Lewinski via NANOG wrote:
Another issue is that Amazon (and possibly other online retailers) are charging me and my neighbors excess sales tax based on the ZIP code associated with a town I do not live in. There's a way to complain and have it reversed.... for every single purchase.
I know this is out of our hands as network operators, but maybe some day one of you will be in a position to help.
I propose that there be a national LDAP service, with OUs for each zipcode (|ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov)|. A household could register at USPS.gov and then be given write access to a household OU ("ou=1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW,|ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov|"). The household OU could then create inetOrgPersons under that, each of which would have self-write access. -- Chris Paul | Rex Consulting |https://www.rexconsulting.net
On May 30, 2024, at 10:12 AM, Christopher Paul via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I propose that there be a national LDAP service, with OUs for each zipcode (ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov). A household could register at USPS.gov and then be given write access to a household OU ("ou=1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW,ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov"). The household OU could then create inetOrgPersons under that, each of which would have self-write access.
Your schema is probably good for 99% of the population. I do wonder though if USPS is the right / sole agency to maintain. Having 911 dependent on an incomplete database seems unwise. Or is it ALI? Not sure if it was Verizon's front end or back end that was the real problem there. The first time I encountered the problems of living in a place with no postal delivery I had a related challenge which was to obtain a new driver's license (along with updating vehicle registration and voter registration). New Mexico requires two proofs of current residential address which for good reasons cannot be a PO Box. The house I was renting was fairly new and I don't think USPS knew it even existed. There were no road signs or house numbers posted. The first time that I visited it the landlord rode along and gave me turn-by-turn directions. There was an address on the lease I signed, but I had no way to verify it corresponded to the property I visited. In fact later I learned that the lease was copied from a template and the address had not been updated (when even property owner gets it wrong, what hope does a bureaucrat have?) It took multiple trips to the MVD to obtain a license, being turned away several times for insufficient paperwork. I had no utility bills for an off-grid home with no postal delivery. In the end they accepted a copy of the lease (which I had to photoshop to show the correct address) and a statement from the bank. But wait... where did the bank get my address? I gave it to them verbally and they accepted it as fact. Some time after getting my ID I found a document issued by the county that assigned a street address to the house for emergency/law enforcement purposes. To my knowledge that is the one and only official documentation of the address. It was around this time (2012) I first became aware of an impending REAL ID requirement that the state was rushing to meet. The paradox of having to manipulate the system to prove my actual residence to obtain a more secure & state-mandated ID card was not lost on me. I never did try to update 911 location when I lived there. This situation of USPS vs 911 vs DMV vs. bank vs. insurer vs. county assessor/elections vs. ? reminds me a little of "Gay marriage: the database engineering perspective" ( https://web.archive.org/web/20170118114056/https://qntm.org/gay ) and if I were tasked with creating a grand unified address database all those entities could use I'd be studying it and probably also Wes Kussmal's "The Sex Life of Tables: What happens when databases about you MATE?" Can I have two entries for two residences? How/who decides which is "primary" for income tax purposes then? Can I have zero entries for being unhoused but have a cell phone and potentially need 911 services? If I'm paranoid can I opt-out of that for mental health reasons? Can I delete an entry my parents added after I'm disowned, preferably without setting up a forwarding entry? I guess the current state of REAL ID should quash any hopes I have for resolving even the relatively simpler problem of 911 USPS location dependency. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/real-id-deadline-will-neve...
This is the Internet, after all, so I will be corrected if I'm wrong. 911 is based on MSAG (Master Street Address Guide), not USPS. However, many operators are likely using the USPS system to sanitize the inputs. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lewinski via NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 1:58:20 PM Subject: RE: Correcting national address databases? On May 30, 2024, at 10:12 AM, Christopher Paul via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I propose that there be a national LDAP service, with OUs for each zipcode (ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov). A household could register at USPS.gov and then be given write access to a household OU ("ou=1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW,ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov"). The household OU could then create inetOrgPersons under that, each of which would have self-write access.
Your schema is probably good for 99% of the population. I do wonder though if USPS is the right / sole agency to maintain. Having 911 dependent on an incomplete database seems unwise. Or is it ALI? Not sure if it was Verizon's front end or back end that was the real problem there. The first time I encountered the problems of living in a place with no postal delivery I had a related challenge which was to obtain a new driver's license (along with updating vehicle registration and voter registration). New Mexico requires two proofs of current residential address which for good reasons cannot be a PO Box. The house I was renting was fairly new and I don't think USPS knew it even existed. There were no road signs or house numbers posted. The first time that I visited it the landlord rode along and gave me turn-by-turn directions. There was an address on the lease I signed, but I had no way to verify it corresponded to the property I visited. In fact later I learned that the lease was copied from a template and the address had not been updated (when even property owner gets it wrong, what hope does a bureaucrat have?) It took multiple trips to the MVD to obtain a license, being turned away several times for insufficient paperwork. I had no utility bills for an off-grid home with no postal delivery. In the end they accepted a copy of the lease (which I had to photoshop to show the correct address) and a statement from the bank. But wait... where did the bank get my address? I gave it to them verbally and they accepted it as fact. Some time after getting my ID I found a document issued by the county that assigned a street address to the house for emergency/law enforcement purposes. To my knowledge that is the one and only official documentation of the address. It was around this time (2012) I first became aware of an impending REAL ID requirement that the state was rushing to meet. The paradox of having to manipulate the system to prove my actual residence to obtain a more secure & state-mandated ID card was not lost on me. I never did try to update 911 location when I lived there. This situation of USPS vs 911 vs DMV vs. bank vs. insurer vs. county assessor/elections vs. ? reminds me a little of "Gay marriage: the database engineering perspective" ( https://web.archive.org/web/20170118114056/https://qntm.org/gay ) and if I were tasked with creating a grand unified address database all those entities could use I'd be studying it and probably also Wes Kussmal's "The Sex Life of Tables: What happens when databases about you MATE?" Can I have two entries for two residences? How/who decides which is "primary" for income tax purposes then? Can I have zero entries for being unhoused but have a cell phone and potentially need 911 services? If I'm paranoid can I opt-out of that for mental health reasons? Can I delete an entry my parents added after I'm disowned, preferably without setting up a forwarding entry? I guess the current state of REAL ID should quash any hopes I have for resolving even the relatively simpler problem of 911 USPS location dependency. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/real-id-deadline-will-neve...
The new standard under NG9-1-1 is GIS with a standard data model. All of that is documented by NENA: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.nena.org/resource/resmgr/standards/nena-sta-006.2a.... Emergency Call Routing Function (ECRF) uses this data to locate the correct PSAP to route a call to. Some states have their own additions to the NENA standards that aim to add consistency to the fields themselves (eg. Post Directional address). There also exists a standard (https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.nena.org/resource/resmgr/Standards/NENA_71-501_GIS...) for converting from GIS to MSAG for hand off to non-NG9-1-1 applications. It specifies the conversion from PIDF-LO into a MSAG record (and the opposite way if needed). On 5/30/24 14:07, Mike Hammett wrote:
This is the Internet, after all, so I will be corrected if I'm wrong.
911 is based on MSAG (Master Street Address Guide), not USPS. However, many operators are likely using the USPS system to sanitize the inputs.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Lewinski via NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Thursday, May 30, 2024 1:58:20 PM *Subject: *RE: Correcting national address databases?
On May 30, 2024, at 10:12 AM, Christopher Paul via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I propose that there be a national LDAP service, with OUs for each
(ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov). A household could register at USPS.gov and
zipcode then be given
write access to a household OU ("ou=1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW,ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov"). The household OU could then create inetOrgPersons under that, each of which would have self-write access.
Your schema is probably good for 99% of the population. I do wonder though if USPS is the right / sole agency to maintain. Having 911 dependent on an incomplete database seems unwise. Or is it ALI? Not sure if it was Verizon's front end or back end that was the real problem there.
The first time I encountered the problems of living in a place with no postal delivery I had a related challenge which was to obtain a new driver's license (along with updating vehicle registration and voter registration). New Mexico requires two proofs of current residential address which for good reasons cannot be a PO Box. The house I was renting was fairly new and I don't think USPS knew it even existed. There were no road signs or house numbers posted. The first time that I visited it the landlord rode along and gave me turn-by-turn directions. There was an address on the lease I signed, but I had no way to verify it corresponded to the property I visited. In fact later I learned that the lease was copied from a template and the address had not been updated (when even property owner gets it wrong, what hope does a bureaucrat have?)
It took multiple trips to the MVD to obtain a license, being turned away several times for insufficient paperwork. I had no utility bills for an off-grid home with no postal delivery. In the end they accepted a copy of the lease (which I had to photoshop to show the correct address) and a statement from the bank. But wait... where did the bank get my address? I gave it to them verbally and they accepted it as fact. Some time after getting my ID I found a document issued by the county that assigned a street address to the house for emergency/law enforcement purposes. To my knowledge that is the one and only official documentation of the address.
It was around this time (2012) I first became aware of an impending REAL ID requirement that the state was rushing to meet. The paradox of having to manipulate the system to prove my actual residence to obtain a more secure & state-mandated ID card was not lost on me. I never did try to update 911 location when I lived there.
This situation of USPS vs 911 vs DMV vs. bank vs. insurer vs. county assessor/elections vs. ? reminds me a little of "Gay marriage: the database engineering perspective" ( https://web.archive.org/web/20170118114056/https://qntm.org/gay ) and if I were tasked with creating a grand unified address database all those entities could use I'd be studying it and probably also Wes Kussmal's "The Sex Life of Tables: What happens when databases about you MATE?"
Can I have two entries for two residences? How/who decides which is "primary" for income tax purposes then? Can I have zero entries for being unhoused but have a cell phone and potentially need 911 services? If I'm paranoid can I opt-out of that for mental health reasons? Can I delete an entry my parents added after I'm disowned, preferably without setting up a forwarding entry?
I guess the current state of REAL ID should quash any hopes I have for resolving even the relatively simpler problem of 911 USPS location dependency. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/real-id-deadline-will-neve...
Since I did address database software for public libraries for a couple of decades.... Addresses are complicated. In North American (USA & Canada) there are approximately 80,000 localities, counties, states and federal addressing authorities (mostly local building and planning departments). These are the official (legal) addressing authorities. Tax and real estate records usual the legal property definition. Because its a PITA to deal with 80,000 different authorities... The USPS (and Canada Post)) maintains a national directory of addresses valid for mailing purposes. Not every address. The addresses they deliver based on local jurisdiction address information, but modified for postal needs. The telephone company (formerly Ma Bell, then ILECs, now PSAPs and states) maintain the Master Street Address Guide (MSAG) for E911 purposes. Again based on local jurisdication address information, but modified for telco/cellular/PSAP needs. The US Census maintains TIGER and Master Address File (MAF) for planning enumeration operations every 10 years. Geocodes domiciles (i.e. where people live, not work) for census workers, not necessarily postal or telephone addressses. Several commercial (i.e. expensive) databases for various purposes, such as driving, mapping, advertising, etc; all use one of the government address databases as their base. Enhance the base information with satellites, airplane and street view mapping. When a record is wrong, figuring out the source is a bit of an art. Mail/Shipping/Ecommerce => start with USPS database Telco/wireless/E911 => start with MSAG database Politics/Gerrymandering => start with Census database Tax, real estate, other => start with local building/planning department On Thu, 30 May 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
This is the Internet, after all, so I will be corrected if I'm wrong. 911 is based on MSAG (Master Street Address Guide), not USPS. However, many operators are likely using the USPS system to sanitize the inputs.
Also, address validation in web forms is often "stupid". Imagine a system for a service that disallows PO boxes. Now imagine the address you're trying to input is on "Post Office Rd" NOW imagine trying to explain that to support. Their solution was to submit a paper form. My solution was to input "PostOffice Rd" which amazingly worked. Nimrod On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 4:31 PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
Since I did address database software for public libraries for a couple of decades.... Addresses are complicated.
In North American (USA & Canada) there are approximately 80,000 localities, counties, states and federal addressing authorities (mostly local building and planning departments). These are the official (legal) addressing authorities. Tax and real estate records usual the legal property definition.
Because its a PITA to deal with 80,000 different authorities...
The USPS (and Canada Post)) maintains a national directory of addresses valid for mailing purposes. Not every address. The addresses they deliver based on local jurisdiction address information, but modified for postal needs.
The telephone company (formerly Ma Bell, then ILECs, now PSAPs and states) maintain the Master Street Address Guide (MSAG) for E911 purposes. Again based on local jurisdication address information, but modified for telco/cellular/PSAP needs.
The US Census maintains TIGER and Master Address File (MAF) for planning enumeration operations every 10 years. Geocodes domiciles (i.e. where people live, not work) for census workers, not necessarily postal or telephone addressses.
Several commercial (i.e. expensive) databases for various purposes, such as driving, mapping, advertising, etc; all use one of the government address databases as their base. Enhance the base information with satellites, airplane and street view mapping.
When a record is wrong, figuring out the source is a bit of an art.
Mail/Shipping/Ecommerce => start with USPS database
Telco/wireless/E911 => start with MSAG database
Politics/Gerrymandering => start with Census database
Tax, real estate, other => start with local building/planning department
On Thu, 30 May 2024, Mike Hammett wrote:
This is the Internet, after all, so I will be corrected if I'm wrong. 911 is based on MSAG (Master Street Address Guide), not USPS. However, many operators are likely using the USPS system to sanitize the inputs.
According to Mike Lewinski via NANOG <mlewinski@massivenetworks.com>:
On May 30, 2024, at 10:12 AM, Christopher Paul via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
I propose that there be a national LDAP service, with OUs for each zipcode (ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov). A household could register at USPS.gov and then be given write access to a household OU ("ou=1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW,ou=20500,dc=us,dc=gov"). The household OU could then create inetOrgPersons under that, each of which would have self-write access.
Your schema is probably good for 99% of the population. I do wonder though if USPS is the right / sole agency to maintain. Having 911 dependent on an incomplete database seems unwise. Or is it ALI? Not sure if it was Verizon's front end or back end that was the real problem there.
It's hard to imagine that anyone else would do a better job. You're in an odd and difficult niche which is going to be a niche no matter who handles it. When E911 was phased in, some combination of the USPS and local governments assigned street addresses to everyone who'd prevviously had an RR or RFD addresss, so "RR#2 Box 27" turned into "473 Pig Burp Road." I don't see any reason in principle they couldn't add street addresses for non-deliverable points although there is surely a lot of bureaucracy to wade through before that could happen.
The first time I encountered the problems of living in a place with no postal delivery I had a related challenge which was to obtain a new driver's license (along with updating vehicle registration and voter registration). New Mexico requires two proofs of current residential address which for good reasons cannot be a PO Box.
You should move to New York. My NY license has always had my PO Box and no other address. I do have a street address, and the PO does deliver there, but it's not on my license. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
participants (10)
-
Aaron C. de Bruyn -
Andy Brezinsky -
Christopher Paul -
jason＠unlimitednet.us -
John Levine -
Mike Hammett -
Mike Lewinski -
Nimrod Levy -
Sean Donelan -
William Herrin