1 - We now have some time on our hands to do some things in our storage area which includes identifying a # of rack rails found in a box. Does anyone have any tips or tricks for identifying what equipment rails might match? 2 - Do you know of any universal rail kits for 1U, 2U and 3U servers, routers, switches that work well? The brand names are nice but expensive. Thought I'd explore some cheaper options first. We use a lot of MikroTik, HP, Dell and some CISCO with a few other things here and there. TIA -- David Funderburk GlobalVision 864-569-0703 -- This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed to be clean.
On point #1, I typically look for a part number and use Google. If a part number is present it often provide clues as to the brand, if not a range of compatible models. If no part number, sometimes the finish can provide clues - e.g. powder coated black rails or mounts often went with other items that have a similar coating (Belkin KVMs, some UPS units), while flat metal rails are common with other brands (Dell servers, Cisco routers/switches). I've taken to wrapping rails together in plastic wrap (the kind for wrapping pallets or moving boxes) and using a marker to label each set. Makes life easier down the road. On point #2, I've found that using the brand name rail can save me hours of time. Either in easing the initial mounting or preventing problems down the road if a server needs to be pulled for maintenance or decommissioned. For anything that doesn't have a rail, and I find the matching rails either prohibitively expensive or unavailable for purchase, a rack mount shelf can be used. Find one that works well with your racks to minimize the time required to mount/unmount. Good racks can make all the difference here. If you use a lot of Dell servers, Dell's newer racks provide plenty of depth for their servers and the square holes are a perfect match for their square rails, making it possible to rack servers in a couple minutes. I've found Dell racks (or racks that work well with Dell servers) also work well with Cisco, APC, and servers from other vendors. I have not found the reverse to be true (e.g. racks made for network equipment often do not work well for many servers). In short, my time was more valuable than the money saved on struggling with mounting issues caused by bad rails or bad racks. Good racks and good rails save time. --Blake On 3/30/2020 7:14 AM, David Funderburk wrote:
1 - We now have some time on our hands to do some things in our storage area which includes identifying a # of rack rails found in a box. Does anyone have any tips or tricks for identifying what equipment rails might match?
2 - Do you know of any universal rail kits for 1U, 2U and 3U servers, routers, switches that work well? The brand names are nice but expensive. Thought I'd explore some cheaper options first. We use a lot of MikroTik, HP, Dell and some CISCO with a few other things here and there.
TIA
-- David Funderburk GlobalVision 864-569-0703
-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by *E.F.A. Project* <http://www.efa-project.org>, and is believed to be clean.
* David Funderburk
2 - Do you know of any universal rail kits for 1U, 2U and 3U servers, routers, switches that work well? The brand names are nice but expensive. Thought I'd explore some cheaper options first. We use a lot of MikroTik, HP, Dell and some CISCO with a few other things here and there.
When it comes to network equipment meant for mounting in four-post data centre racks with PSU-to-port airflow, the included kits are usually anything but nice. The problem is that they typically only allow for insertion/removal through the rear of the rack (unlike servers, which are almost exclusively mounted through the front of the rack). When a rack has been filled up, removal/insertion through the rear will often be essentially impossible due to cables, vertical PDUs and stuff like that that gets in the way. Explained in pictures here: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/techblog/2019/08/06/rack-switch-removal.html If someone knows of a generic rack mount kit for data centre switches that allows for insertion/removal through the front of the rack, i.e. from/to the cold aisle, I'd be very grateful. Best thing I've come up with so far is to use shelves, but that doubles the amount of rack units I need to use (1U switch sitting on top of a 1U shelf...) Tore
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 04:18:18PM +0200, Tore Anderson wrote:
When a rack has been filled up, removal/insertion through the rear will often be essentially impossible due to cables, vertical PDUs and stuff like that that gets in the way.
Explained in pictures here: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/techblog/2019/08/06/rack-switch-removal.html
If someone knows of a generic rack mount kit for data centre switches that allows for insertion/removal through the front of the rack, i.e. from/to the cold aisle, I'd be very grateful.
I've been asking manufacturers for proper server-like slide-rails for their switches for years. Now they've started making the switches as deep or even deeper than servers, but they still use the same old rack ear mounting method.
Once upon a time, Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU> said:
I've been asking manufacturers for proper server-like slide-rails for their switches for years. Now they've started making the switches as deep or even deeper than servers, but they still use the same old rack ear mounting method.
Maybe it's because they're primarily a server vendor, but Dell switches (at least the N3000 series I've used most recently) have 4-post mount rails. IIRC they aren't extending sliding rails like the servers have, but the switch slides into the rails. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:09:25AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU> said:
I've been asking manufacturers for proper server-like slide-rails for their switches for years. Now they've started making the switches as deep or even deeper than servers, but they still use the same old rack ear mounting method.
Maybe it's because they're primarily a server vendor, but Dell switches (at least the N3000 series I've used most recently) have 4-post mount rails. IIRC they aren't extending sliding rails like the servers have, but the switch slides into the rails.
The point is that the switches need to be removable without empty space above/below, and ideally from the rear side of the rack. By having extending/sliding rails, you can lift out or drop in the switch after you slide it out. Then you can remove the rails. With fixed rails, you can't get the switch out without bending the ear part of the rails when there are PDUs and other stuff in the way.
* Chuck Anderson
The point is that the switches need to be removable without empty space above/below, and ideally from the rear side of the rack. By having extending/sliding rails, you can lift out or drop in the switch after you slide it out. Then you can remove the rails.
With fixed rails, you can't get the switch out without bending the ear part of the rails when there are PDUs and other stuff in the way.
Not necessarily. Even sliding rails must be constructed in a way that facilitates removal through the cold aisle side of the rack. That's not a given. One example of sliding rails that unfortunately do *not* allow for removal that way is the Edge-Core RKIT-100G-SLIDE: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/techblog/2020/01/17/new-routers.html (Ctrl+F Bonus) Tore
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 05:27:44PM +0200, Tore Anderson wrote:
* Chuck Anderson
The point is that the switches need to be removable without empty space above/below, and ideally from the rear side of the rack. By having extending/sliding rails, you can lift out or drop in the switch after you slide it out. Then you can remove the rails.
With fixed rails, you can't get the switch out without bending the ear part of the rails when there are PDUs and other stuff in the way.
Not necessarily. Even sliding rails must be constructed in a way that facilitates removal through the cold aisle side of the rack. That's not a given.
One example of sliding rails that unfortunately do *not* allow for removal that way is the Edge-Core RKIT-100G-SLIDE:
https://www.redpill-linpro.com/techblog/2020/01/17/new-routers.html (Ctrl+F Bonus)
I'd be happy with removal from the hot aisle, because I've already had to do that many times and if you manage cable routing properly it isn't as much of an issue. Granted, getting everyone to be neat with their cable routing is not easy, but at least cables can be moved around. The biggest issue for me is how the ears remain attached to the equipment while you insert or remove it. If the ears/rails could be mounted to the empty rack U first and the switch slid in second (and the reverse for removal), that would be fine for me. As it is now, there is basically no way to deal with the ears other than bending/destroying them on the way out. And that doesn't solve the case for installing new switches in a dense rack.
I've been asking manufacturers for proper server-like slide-rails for their switches for years. Now they've started making the switches as deep or even deeper than servers, but they still use the same old rack ear mounting method.
The Arista 4 post rack kits are pretty good. Toolless as well. - Ethan O'Toole
I've had gear that came with a small rear support shelf that didn't had to the height, RGB Networks BNPs for example. I'm pretty sure we've used these with the BNPs one on top of the other. Page 16 in this PDF shows the shelf. http://www.konturm.ru/catalogy/df/bnp2xr_installation_guide_3.7.1_20160222.p... On 3/30/20, 9:19 AM, "NANOG on behalf of Tore Anderson" <nanog-bounces@nanog.org on behalf of tore@fud.no> wrote: *External Email: Use Caution* * David Funderburk > 2 - Do you know of any universal rail kits for 1U, 2U and 3U servers, routers, switches that work well? The brand names are nice but expensive. Thought I'd explore some cheaper options first. We use a lot of MikroTik, HP, Dell and some CISCO with a few other things here and there. When it comes to network equipment meant for mounting in four-post data centre racks with PSU-to-port airflow, the included kits are usually anything but nice. The problem is that they typically only allow for insertion/removal through the rear of the rack (unlike servers, which are almost exclusively mounted through the front of the rack). When a rack has been filled up, removal/insertion through the rear will often be essentially impossible due to cables, vertical PDUs and stuff like that that gets in the way. Explained in pictures here: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/techblog/2019/08/06/rack-switch-removal.html If someone knows of a generic rack mount kit for data centre switches that allows for insertion/removal through the front of the rack, i.e. from/to the cold aisle, I'd be very grateful. Best thing I've come up with so far is to use shelves, but that doubles the amount of rack units I need to use (1U switch sitting on top of a 1U shelf...) Tore
* Luke Guillory
I've had gear that came with a small rear support shelf that didn't had to the height, RGB Networks BNPs for example. I'm pretty sure we've used these with the BNPs one on top of the other.
Page 16 in this PDF shows the shelf.
http://www.konturm.ru/catalogy/df/bnp2xr_installation_guide_3.7.1_20160222.p...
Interesting, thanks! Such a shelf would do the trick if it is thin enough to fit in the tiny space between two devices mounted in adjacent rack units. Do you know if it is possible to buy this kind of shelf from somewhere (without an accompanying device)? Tore
Juniper's ToR switches have slide in rails. They are a bit frustrating compared to Dell easy rails, but they do the trick. -- Chris On 3/30/20, 10:14, "NANOG on behalf of Tore Anderson" <nanog-bounces@nanog.org on behalf of tore@fud.no> wrote: * Luke Guillory > I've had gear that came with a small rear support shelf that didn't had to the height, RGB Networks BNPs for example. I'm pretty sure we've used these with the BNPs one on top of the other. > > Page 16 in this PDF shows the shelf. > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.konturm.ru%2fcatalogy%2fdf%2fbnp2xr_installation_guide_3.7.1_20160222.pdf&c=E,1,YHvnT2TmvwvheJVrHCQw14VV7CjJT2p7KYuB3jRzPmiSMwf-OUsfPJGLzHZTEuIHdW7HhcOy47oSBKKQ2UMZdryM3hs-d8kUDoqJ34tTz5jw&typo=1 Interesting, thanks! Such a shelf would do the trick if it is thin enough to fit in the tiny space between two devices mounted in adjacent rack units. Do you know if it is possible to buy this kind of shelf from somewhere (without an accompanying device)? Tore
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 03:15:54PM +0000, Cummings, Chris wrote:
Juniper's ToR switches have slide in rails. They are a bit frustrating compared to Dell easy rails, but they do the trick.
You can slide the switch in/out while attached securely to the rails? That is news to me and my QFX5k and QFX10k switches.
Now that you say that, I think you're right. I am referring specifically to the EX4650 and they are the cheesy type where the rear half of the rail stays screwed in to the rack and the front half of the rail is attached to the switch. I assume it is the same on the QFX since they are very similar platforms. Basically they are that annoying type between rack ears and sliding rails where the device can separate completely from the rails. chris On 3/30/20, 10:37, "NANOG on behalf of Chuck Anderson" <nanog-bounces@nanog.org on behalf of cra@WPI.EDU> wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 03:15:54PM +0000, Cummings, Chris wrote: > Juniper's ToR switches have slide in rails. They are a bit frustrating compared to Dell easy rails, but they do the trick. You can slide the switch in/out while attached securely to the rails? That is news to me and my QFX5k and QFX10k switches.
* Cummings, Chris
Now that you say that, I think you're right. I am referring specifically to the EX4650 and they are the cheesy type where the rear half of the rail stays screwed in to the rack and the front half of the rail is attached to the switch. I assume it is the same on the QFX since they are very similar platforms. Basically they are that annoying type between rack ears and sliding rails where the device can separate completely from the rails.
Looking at the documentation (linked below), it would appear the EX4650 has the exact same rack-mount kit as the EX4500 and EX4600 do. They all share the fundamental problem I'm taking about, namely that there are fixed mounting ears on the port side of the switch, which prevent removal through the cold aisle (assuming data centre/PSU-to-port airflow). The "sliders" are really just there to prevent the PSU end of the switch to sag. Tore https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/inform... (page 6)
We tried to flip the sides of rails in QFX5120 and it cause two problems that prevent us from keeping it this way 1. The switch was 2 cm from the rear post line 2. The switch vibrate as you can see in the video https://photos.app.goo.gl/WQwcE9vcPjSiEi9N9 Nitzan On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 6:54 PM Tore Anderson <tore@fud.no> wrote:
* Cummings, Chris
Now that you say that, I think you're right. I am referring specifically to the EX4650 and they are the cheesy type where the rear half of the rail stays screwed in to the rack and the front half of the rail is attached to the switch. I assume it is the same on the QFX since they are very similar platforms. Basically they are that annoying type between rack ears and sliding rails where the device can separate completely from the rails.
Looking at the documentation (linked below), it would appear the EX4650 has the exact same rack-mount kit as the EX4500 and EX4600 do.
They all share the fundamental problem I'm taking about, namely that there are fixed mounting ears on the port side of the switch, which prevent removal through the cold aisle (assuming data centre/PSU-to-port airflow).
The "sliders" are really just there to prevent the PSU end of the switch to sag.
Tore
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/inform... (page 6)
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 07:09:48PM +0300, Nitzan Tzelniker wrote:
We tried to flip the sides of rails in QFX5120 and it cause two problems that prevent us from keeping it this way 1. The switch was 2 cm from the rear post line 2. The switch vibrate as you can see in the video https://photos.app.goo.gl/WQwcE9vcPjSiEi9N9
That is unfortunate, but amusing.
Not sure to be honest, I see the following though which may work just not sure how thin this one is. I noticed in the DOCs it says not to use if placing directly on top of another device, which you could assume might mean it's too thick. BTI7801 Chassis Support Bracket Kit (BT8A78SSB3) https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/bti-series/b... On 3/30/20, 10:13 AM, "Tore Anderson" <tore@fud.no> wrote: *External Email: Use Caution* * Luke Guillory > I've had gear that came with a small rear support shelf that didn't had to the height, RGB Networks BNPs for example. I'm pretty sure we've used these with the BNPs one on top of the other. > > Page 16 in this PDF shows the shelf. > > http://www.konturm.ru/catalogy/df/bnp2xr_installation_guide_3.7.1_20160222.p... Interesting, thanks! Such a shelf would do the trick if it is thin enough to fit in the tiny space between two devices mounted in adjacent rack units. Do you know if it is possible to buy this kind of shelf from somewhere (without an accompanying device)? Tore
I have considered making my own rails using a laser cutting service. I have done this before where I created 500 mm to 19 inch rack adapters and had them laser cut at lasergist.com. Fairly simple really, just make a drawing in Fusion360 and upload the drawing. A few days later the adapters arrived. Rails would probably require some metal bending but could otherwise be made the same way. Maybe we could do an open source design here? Regards Baldur
Hi, something like https://www.opencompute.org/projects/rack-and-power comes into my mind for that. Mounting on 4 posts should be the default. It is insane what some vendors want to mount on 2 posts only. Regards, Karsten Am Mo., 30. März 2020 um 19:46 Uhr schrieb Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com>:
I have considered making my own rails using a laser cutting service. I have done this before where I created 500 mm to 19 inch rack adapters and had them laser cut at lasergist.com. Fairly simple really, just make a drawing in Fusion360 and upload the drawing. A few days later the adapters arrived.
Rails would probably require some metal bending but could otherwise be made the same way. Maybe we could do an open source design here?
Regards
Baldur
On Mar 30, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Karsten Elfenbein <karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
something like https://www.opencompute.org/projects/rack-and-power comes into my mind for that. Mounting on 4 posts should be the default. It is insane what some vendors want to mount on 2 posts only.
That brings up an interesting question. As I understand it, the penchant for two-post mounts come from what are at least colloquially termed telco racks that are or were common when you had tons of modem banks and such. Are such mounts — much like DC power — still quite common in the service provider space, or do most use more or less normal racks? (That said, the 750mm wide (29.5in) racks that actually have room for high density cables inside the rack seem much more useful for a networking application than the 600mm wide version.) -- Coy Hile coy.hile@coyhile.com
2-post racks (typically 23" not 19” however 19 is making a dent) are still very common in MPOE rooms and OSP plant termination. Minimal space consumption is the prime reason. Frankly most fiber patch panels are a foot deep and DWDM gear has been designed to be that profile too. Many carriers bring their own seismic-rated 2-post solutions (think ILECs and some of the bigger CLECs) and continue to specify that to this day. However all new datacenters we build from the ground up, as much as possible, are individual locking 4-post cabs for every application. -Ben. -Ben Cannon CEO 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC ben@6by7.net <mailto:ben@6by7.net>
On Mar 30, 2020, at 2:31 PM, Coy Hile <coy.hile@coyhile.com> wrote:
On Mar 30, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Karsten Elfenbein <karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
something like https://www.opencompute.org/projects/rack-and-power comes into my mind for that. Mounting on 4 posts should be the default. It is insane what some vendors want to mount on 2 posts only.
That brings up an interesting question. As I understand it, the penchant for two-post mounts come from what are at least colloquially termed telco racks that are or were common when you had tons of modem banks and such. Are such mounts — much like DC power — still quite common in the service provider space, or do most use more or less normal racks? (That said, the 750mm wide (29.5in) racks that actually have room for high density cables inside the rack seem much more useful for a networking application than the 600mm wide version.)
-- Coy Hile coy.hile@coyhile.com
That's a tough one. In the telco space, the common sizes are 19" and 23". 19" for gear, 23" for fiber patch panels, etc. There are also some 25" floating around (Nortel, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately, 19" gear fits in 19" racks. It fits in 23" sometimes -- if the manufacture makes both size ears, or you have to use an adapter plate, which can be a pain, and expensive (for 25" you may as well find a local machine shop to make them for you, or it's cheaper to remove them and start over). Sometimes you can do 19" gear and 23" cable management in a 23" rack, which is nice. There is also the telco proclivity to attach stand-offs on the back side of the rack for vertical cabling, which can take up even more space. The one thing you really can't do is take servers, etc. designed for a cabinet or 4-post style rack and put them in a 2-post neatly. There's adapters and things, but they're a pain as well. At least with a 4-post square-hole rack you can get 80% of what you want to fit. -----Original Message----- From: "Coy Hile" <coy.hile@coyhile.com> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:31pm To: "Karsten Elfenbein" <karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: rack rails
On Mar 30, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Karsten Elfenbein <karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
something like https://www.opencompute.org/projects/rack-and-power comes into my mind for that. Mounting on 4 posts should be the default. It is insane what some vendors want to mount on 2 posts only.
That brings up an interesting question. As I understand it, the penchant for two-post mounts come from what are at least colloquially termed telco racks that are or were common when you had tons of modem banks and such. Are such mounts — much like DC power — still quite common in the service provider space, or do most use more or less normal racks? (That said, the 750mm wide (29.5in) racks that actually have room for high density cables inside the rack seem much more useful for a networking application than the 600mm wide version.) -- Coy Hile coy.hile@coyhile.com
I have to deal with the slightly annoying ETSI racks also sometimes called 21 inch racks. As a french invention it is naturally not actually 21 inches but 500 mm between inside of rails and 535 mm outside, with 535 mm being very close to 21 inches. Although I love the idea of using metric all I ever do is installing adapters, so I can mount 19 inch rack equipment. A waste really. Regards Baldur man. 30. mar. 2020 23.49 skrev Shawn L via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>:
That's a tough one. In the telco space, the common sizes are 19" and 23". 19" for gear, 23" for fiber patch panels, etc. There are also some 25" floating around (Nortel, I'm looking at you).
Unfortunately, 19" gear fits in 19" racks. It fits in 23" sometimes -- if the manufacture makes both size ears, or you have to use an adapter plate, which can be a pain, and expensive (for 25" you may as well find a local machine shop to make them for you, or it's cheaper to remove them and start over).
Sometimes you can do 19" gear and 23" cable management in a 23" rack, which is nice. There is also the telco proclivity to attach stand-offs on the back side of the rack for vertical cabling, which can take up even more space.
The one thing you really can't do is take servers, etc. designed for a cabinet or 4-post style rack and put them in a 2-post neatly. There's adapters and things, but they're a pain as well. At least with a 4-post square-hole rack you can get 80% of what you want to fit.
-----Original Message----- From: "Coy Hile" <coy.hile@coyhile.com> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:31pm To: "Karsten Elfenbein" <karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: rack rails
On Mar 30, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Karsten Elfenbein < karsten.elfenbein@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
something like https://www.opencompute.org/projects/rack-and-power comes into my mind for that. Mounting on 4 posts should be the default. It is insane what some vendors want to mount on 2 posts only.
That brings up an interesting question. As I understand it, the penchant for two-post mounts come from what are at least colloquially termed telco racks that are or were common when you had tons of modem banks and such. Are such mounts — much like DC power — still quite common in the service provider space, or do most use more or less normal racks? (That said, the 750mm wide (29.5in) racks that actually have room for high density cables inside the rack seem much more useful for a networking application than the 600mm wide version.)
-- Coy Hile coy.hile@coyhile.com
participants (14)
-
Baldur Norddahl -
Ben Cannon -
Blake Hudson -
Chris Adams -
Chuck Anderson -
Coy Hile -
Cummings, Chris -
David Funderburk -
Ethan O'Toole -
Karsten Elfenbein -
Luke Guillory -
Nitzan Tzelniker -
Shawn L -
Tore Anderson