Alexei Roudnev wrote: VoIP over satellite? I am very sceptical about it. Better, forget such idea.
It works fine if the pipe is good enough (T1 class or better, what Joe's talking about). Latency although not nice is not the worst problem (which is jitter). In my experience aggressive QOS (priority queing) is required if you share the pipe with data. One day for the fun of it I even tried with DirectWay (el-cheapo consumer-grade satlink); for one line in the wee hours of the night it worked fine. Forget about it day-time though. But as long as you understand that your're not going to get VOIP over sat for 50 bucks a month and it's correctly configured you're fine. Michel.
Thanks for the answers about Voip usage over satellite (I did not know, that it does not cause unacceptable delays and echo). Responses (which I received) shows, that many people deployed such system successfully.
Alexei Roudnev wrote: VoIP over satellite? I am very sceptical about it. Better, forget such idea.
In message <05bb01c41431$dd522e00$6401a8c0@alexh>, "Alexei Roudnev" writes:
Thanks for the answers about Voip usage over satellite (I did not know, that it does not cause unacceptable delays and echo). Responses (which I received) shows, that many people deployed such system successfully.
Define "unacceptable". Old-style telcos have delay budgets for their designs; if the round-trip time is too long, people find the call unpleasant. While VoIP does have its own delay issues (see below), the big problem here is the satellite link. VoIP doesn't give you an exemption from the speed of light laws; if you find satellite phone calls unpleasant -- I do -- you're not going to like satellite VoIP calls, for reasons that have little to do with the IP. This is one reason why companies have spent fortunes putting in transoceanic fibers instead of launching more satellites -- the customers prefer the quality. Satellite calls are cheaper, but they're noticeably -- and for many people, unacceptably -- worse in quality. I should note that many VoIP systems make this noticeably worse, though (of course) less so as a percentage of the total delay than for domestic US VoIP calls. The problem is the tradeoff between delay and efficiency. Suppose you're sending 56 Kbps, uncompressed -- the equivalent of so-called "toll quality" voice. That's 7 kilobytes/sec. If you want nice, big UDP packets with 1K payloads, you've just incurred about 143 ms of buffering delay, independent of transmission time. (And on a DS1 line, transmission time for that packet is non-trivial.) The total delay budget is, as I recall, about 150 ms. You can go to nice, short packets -- say, 100 bytes -- but then your IP, UDP, and RTP headers add a substantial amount of bandwidth overhead. Apart from line efficiency, on relatively slow lines that's a lot of serialization time going out over the wire. Compression makes the packets nice and short; depending on what you do, it may or may not help with the headers, but you have to spend a chunk of CPU time after you've collected a large enough voice sample to be worth compressing, and that means more delay time. Bottom line: VoIP is inherently costly, either in delay time, bandwidth, or both. It doesn't mean it's unacceptably bad, but that 150 ms delay budget came from many years of psychoacoustic studies. Cisco has a good web page on this, with lots of numbers. See http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/788/voip/delay-details.html --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb
It means, that satellite (with it's 1 second delay and unavoidable echo) should be better accepted for _profeccionsl_ phone connection (such as, for example, connection between remote oil wells and central office), because you can always stay with delay, if follow some talking discippline (and it is better than trunking radio, anyway), while it will be less acceptable for home / residential users. Delay (by itself) does not influence voice quaility, but it required strick talking discipline / policy to avoid misunderstanding, echo and so on. We can expect such discipline from professional workers, but you never expect it from your 5 y.old kid. Alex
In message <05bb01c41431$dd522e00$6401a8c0@alexh>, "Alexei Roudnev"
Thanks for the answers about Voip usage over satellite (I did not know,
writes: that
it does not cause unacceptable delays and echo). Responses (which I received) shows, that many people deployed such system successfully.
Define "unacceptable".
Old-style telcos have delay budgets for their designs; if the round-trip time is too long, people find the call unpleasant. While VoIP does have its own delay issues (see below), the big problem here is the satellite link. VoIP doesn't give you an exemption from the speed of light laws; if you find satellite phone calls unpleasant -- I do -- you're not going to like satellite VoIP calls, for reasons that have little to do with the IP. This is one reason why companies have spent fortunes putting in transoceanic fibers instead of launching more satellites -- the customers prefer the quality. Satellite calls are cheaper, but they're noticeably -- and for many people, unacceptably -- worse in quality.
I should note that many VoIP systems make this noticeably worse, though (of course) less so as a percentage of the total delay than for domestic US VoIP calls. The problem is the tradeoff between delay and efficiency. Suppose you're sending 56 Kbps, uncompressed -- the equivalent of so-called "toll quality" voice. That's 7 kilobytes/sec. If you want nice, big UDP packets with 1K payloads, you've just incurred about 143 ms of buffering delay, independent of transmission time. (And on a DS1 line, transmission time for that packet is non-trivial.) The total delay budget is, as I recall, about 150 ms. You can go to nice, short packets -- say, 100 bytes -- but then your IP, UDP, and RTP headers add a substantial amount of bandwidth overhead. Apart from line efficiency, on relatively slow lines that's a lot of serialization time going out over the wire. Compression makes the packets nice and short; depending on what you do, it may or may not help with the headers, but you have to spend a chunk of CPU time after you've collected a large enough voice sample to be worth compressing, and that means more delay time.
Bottom line: VoIP is inherently costly, either in delay time, bandwidth, or both. It doesn't mean it's unacceptably bad, but that 150 ms delay budget came from many years of psychoacoustic studies.
Cisco has a good web page on this, with lots of numbers. See http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/788/voip/delay-details.html
--Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb
In message <05f001c41474$f8ae7080$6401a8c0@alexh>, "Alexei Roudnev" writes:
It means, that satellite (with it's 1 second delay and unavoidable echo) should be better accepted for _profeccionsl_ phone connection (such as, for example, connection between remote oil wells and central office), because you can always stay with delay, if follow some talking discippline (and it is better than trunking radio, anyway), while it will be less acceptable for home / residential users.
Delay (by itself) does not influence voice quaility, but it required strick talking discipline / policy to avoid misunderstanding, echo and so on. We can expect such discipline from professional workers, but you never expect it from your 5 y.old kid.
Fair enough. I should add one more thing: with that sort of delay, you need good echo cancellers. If you're getting echo, they're not good enough, I suspect... --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb
## On 2004-03-27 19:30 -0800 Alexei Roudnev typed: AR> AR> It means, that satellite (with it's 1 second delay and unavoidable echo) Geosynchronous satellite IP link RTT can be just over 500 mill-sec (real life experience) IMHO thats a rather significant difference -- Rafi
500 RTT, + 150 jitter buffer, + something else... it will be 700 - 800 msec, more likely. When we worked with a few sattelliite lines (5 years ago), I never saw ping rtt less than 800 msec. Of course, it does not mean that you can not see RTT = 500 msec (but I never saw it). But I was talking aboutt other thing - ~1second delay != bad quality, it is just a delay, which means that, if you have good echo cancellers (which is interesting question) and follow talking discipline, you can talk without any problems. It explains, why satellite links + VoIP can be a good combination (moreover; after satellite delay, which is 500 - 600 msec, VoIP additional delay ,which is 50 - 150 msec, does not change overall delay so much, as in case of VoIP over bad link _vs_ traditional telephony (200 msec vs 20 msec = 10 times; 800 msec vs. 600 msec = 30%).
## On 2004-03-27 19:30 -0800 Alexei Roudnev typed:
AR> AR> It means, that satellite (with it's 1 second delay and unavoidable
echo)
Geosynchronous satellite IP link RTT can be just over 500 mill-sec (real life experience) IMHO thats a rather significant difference
--
Rafi
None of the satellite circuit I have worked on during the last five years has been more than 550 ms RTT. They are all C-band VSAT type systems in North America and Latin America. The economy (both $$ and quality) of satellite is such that it is only considered ... 1) No reasonably priced or reliable terrestial alternative is available. This has generally been the case for mineral exploration type operations. Political motivations have also come into play in some cases, e.g. when an unfriendly jurisdiction/neighbour exists between A and B. 2) When you don't have 2-4 weeks for all the xLEC/IXC/PTT to agree on things so that you can come up with an end-to-end build design, then spend another 6-8 weeks coordinating the build out, and it is not unusual to spend yet another week or two for the said xLEC/IXC/PTT to blame each other when the circuit won't turn up because someone left a piece of tone generating test equipment plugged in. I can turn up a sat circuit in as little as 24-hours once the teleport is in place (typically 2-3 weeks for remote locations). The same also goes for increasing/descreasing bandwidth on demand (can be very expensive). 3) When you need to reduce the number of points of failures to that single (30,000 km * 2) hop. 4) When you need a reliable/cheaper backup/overflow to the primary terrestial circuit (my original question for starting this thread ;)
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Alexei Roudnev Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 11:21 PM To: Rafi Sadowsky Cc: Steven M. Bellovin; Michel Py; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Overflow circuit
500 RTT, + 150 jitter buffer, + something else... it will be 700 - 800 msec, more likely. When we worked with a few sattelliite lines (5 years ago), I never saw ping rtt less than 800 msec. Of course, it does not mean that you can not see RTT = 500 msec (but I never saw it).
But I was talking aboutt other thing - ~1second delay != bad quality, it is just a delay, which means that, if you have good echo cancellers (which is interesting question) and follow talking discipline, you can talk without any problems. It explains, why satellite links + VoIP can be a good combination (moreover; after satellite delay, which is 500 - 600 msec, VoIP additional delay ,which is 50 - 150 msec, does not change overall delay so much, as in case of VoIP over bad link _vs_ traditional telephony (200 msec vs 20 msec = 10 times; 800 msec vs. 600 msec = 30%).
## On 2004-03-27 19:30 -0800 Alexei Roudnev typed:
AR> AR> It means, that satellite (with it's 1 second delay and
unavoidable echo)
Geosynchronous satellite IP link RTT can be just over 500 mill-sec (real life experience) IMHO thats a rather significant difference
--
Rafi
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