Per Gregers Bilse <pgb@EU.net> writes:
You need to study some more (European) Internet history.
I certainly accept that, so with respect to your assertion that EUnet was "kicked out" of Ebone 6-7 years ago I decided to check on three obvious primary sources, viz. Frode, Kees Neggers and Glenn Kowack. The first choice was obviously the easiest. Frode (unsurprisingly) was surprised at your version of history. I was too, since it varied with what I remember seeing at the time (remember I have some UUNET history too :-) ). He also said that Ebone would be very happy to welcome EUnet back into the fold if the departure was due to some misunderstanding several years ago. I shall ask the other two at leisure today or tomorrow in email. BTW, since there are other people reading this who would make good primary sources, I welcome any historical retrospectives by private email.
Among other things, you seem to overlook
Which other things, out of curiosity? Admittedly I'm crippled by having a viewpoint firmly fixed in North America for the past few years, and I'm certainly open to different points of view with respect to the history of European Internetworking.
while Ebone had its US half circuits paid by the NSF, and Rick Adams lent us a big helping hand during those years.
Wow, this is a rat's nest. :) Um, my ICM memories are that in the first place Ebone was initially principally an academic consortium, but that as commercial traffic began appearing, NSF funding began disappearing. I believe (Steve Goldstein can correct me if I'm wrong) that Ebone generally acquired capacity on fractions of lines the NSF did not pay for. There is some fuzziness about the RENATER lines, and one could take several readings on the NORDUNET capacity over the past couple of years, but in any event, I think you will find that any indirect subsidy really didn't amount to all that much (Dr Goldstein's pockets are only so deep) and probably did go to the benefit of the NSF's community of interest, and in particular during the period when Ebone was still a consortium rather than the hybrid Association/Incorporation in place now. There is no question that Rick was a pioneer in investing in the international growth of the commercial Internet, and that alot of the proliferation of the Internet in Europe is due in some measure to him.
As you are probably aware, we have been on very friendly terms with Ebone for several years now.
Yup, EUnet is cool. Sean.
On Aug 22, 7:37, "Sean M. Doran" <smd@clock.org> wrote:
I certainly accept that, so with respect to your assertion that EUnet was "kicked out" of Ebone 6-7 years ago I decided to check on three obvious primary sources, viz. Frode, Kees Neggers and Glenn Kowack. The first choice was obviously the easiest.
Frode (unsurprisingly) was surprised at your version of history. I was too, since it varied with what I remember
This was a somewhat older Ebone, not the Ebone that we became friendly with (again). Our own infrastructure was the result of our presence being in conflict with public funding and thus AUP; funding/AUP which was introduced in coup-like fashion, without prior discussion or agreement -- simply "the following will happen, there is no room for you". In the end things didn't materialize in the form they were introduced, but we had no choice at the time except to build our own. You will of course always find different perceptions of the same events, but you should keep in mind that not everything was said in public, and there will thus be a natural diversity of opinion. If you think rationally, why didn't we stay with Ebone? Warm, cosy, cooperative -- why would anybody break away voluntarily?
:-) ). He also said that Ebone would be very happy to welcome EUnet back into the fold if the departure was due to some misunderstanding several years ago.
It was no misunderstanding, it was fairly run-of-the-mill power politics; but Frode wasn't part of it. And, of course, if Ebone wants to be part of EUnet, we can probably work something out.
Among other things, you seem to overlook
Which other things, out of curiosity? Admittedly I'm
Perhaps the most interesting part is that EUnet predates Ebone by several years (one can take a hint from AS numbers, we are 286, Ebone is 1755). Your somewhat glorifying description of Ebone and the lumping of everybody else belies the fact that EUnet was the original cooperative model, with all members contributing to the costs, and lines shared as per your description of Ebone. The model was thus "commercial" from the start, with no direct public funding, and with a very high degree of independence for the members (or customers, or whatever one should call them). Parts of that model still exist today, with the national operating companies (most of which are fully owned by EUnet International Ltd) retaining a fair degree of autonomy, and EUnet CS BV not seeking to make a profit (this is done in the operating companies).
while Ebone had its US half circuits paid by the NSF, and Rick Adams lent us a big helping hand during those years.
Wow, this is a rat's nest. :) Um, my ICM memories are
And it wasn't nice to be the innocent cheese.
that in the first place Ebone was initially principally an academic consortium, but that as commercial traffic began
It was all R&D'ish at the time, EUnet too (heck, we were the first, traceable back to 1982). The initial commercial interests came out of the UNIX User Groups, which naturally contained a high proportion of IT companies and professionals (my involvement with EUnet started by me being a slightly disgruntled UUG member and EUnet customer), in addition to the more traditional members (computer science departments, labs, institutes, etc).
the past couple of years, but in any event, I think you will find that any indirect subsidy really didn't amount to all
I didn't exactly imply that (it could be a hot discussion topic, though), rather that we (and our members/customers) found ourselves out pretty cold due to not being a (politically correct) national research network. Those networks actually appeared much later than the EUnet group(s), and in a number of countries used combinations of public money and political pressure to usurp our customer base, which at the time was largely non-commercial (in the sense that they weren't profit-making companies; they were, however, commercial customers in the sense that they paid themselves for the resources they used, a principle which has been re-introduced in many places over the past few years). But all of this is obviously history by now. -- ------ ___ --- Per G. Bilse, Director Network Eng & Ops ----- / / / __ ___ _/_ ---- EUnet Communications Services B.V. ---- /--- / / / / /__/ / ----- Singel 540, 1017 AZ Amsterdam, NL --- /___ /__/ / / /__ / ------ tel: +31 20 5305333, fax: +31 20 6224657 --- ------- 24hr emergency number: +31 20 421 0865 --- Connecting Europe since AS286 --- http://www.EU.net e-mail: bilse at domain
participants (2)
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Per Gregers Bilse -
Sean M. Doran