Thanks for the reality check. Whether the rest of us like it or not, you're right. Bill Goldstein Senior Internet Specialist AT&T wgoldstein@att.com TEL:(412)642-7288 ---------- From: shields Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 3:59 AM To: mark Cc: shields; nanog Subject: Re: BBN Peering issues
fundamentally important that these ideals be extended to the future of the Internet, if it is to have a future. No company should have the right to force another to pay for connectivity simply because the latter has not been around since the beginning or they are not a telco.
BBN is answerable to their customers and shareholders and not to your or my ideals of how the Internet should work. -- Shields, CrossLink. <<File: Re_ BBN Peering issues.TXT>>
Yep. What comes with this is that Exodus and the rest of the world have the freedom to inform our customers and the public in general of (1) what we ascertain the situation to be, (2) how we analyze it, and (3) what we recommend that customers of both Exodus and BBN do in response. Whether the rest of you like it or not. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%! Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost On Sun, Aug 16, 1998 at 02:58:19PM -0400, Goldstein_William@bns.att.com wrote:
Thanks for the reality check. Whether the rest of us like it or not, you're right.
Bill Goldstein Senior Internet Specialist AT&T wgoldstein@att.com TEL:(412)642-7288
---------- From: shields Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 3:59 AM To: mark Cc: shields; nanog Subject: Re: BBN Peering issues
fundamentally important that these ideals be extended to the future of the Internet, if it is to have a future. No company should have the right to force another to pay for connectivity simply because the latter has not been around since the beginning or they are not a telco.
BBN is answerable to their customers and shareholders and not to your or my ideals of how the Internet should work. -- Shields, CrossLink. <<File: Re_ BBN Peering issues.TXT>>
Well that's all fine and dandy. however the internet has worked for 20 years that I have been asssociated with it, on the working principal that no one hassled or encumbered peering charges and there were no board rooms or stockholders and that is why it worked, because people knew what they were doing. The admins and network engineers that do this daily for a living or scientific researcher that develope codes and methods to do it better made this happen and certainly not the latter and from my view it WORKED. Adding Joe Blow to the picture is like elevating A Janitor to Director of Network Services and turning him/her loose in the NOC. Goldstein_William@bns.att.com wrote:
Thanks for the reality check. Whether the rest of us like it or not, you're right.
Bill Goldstein Senior Internet Specialist AT&T wgoldstein@att.com TEL:(412)642-7288
---------- From: shields Sent: Sunday, August 16, 1998 3:59 AM To: mark Cc: shields; nanog Subject: Re: BBN Peering issues
fundamentally important that these ideals be extended to the future of the Internet, if it is to have a future. No company should have the right to force another to pay for connectivity simply because the latter has not been around since the beginning or they are not a telco.
BBN is answerable to their customers and shareholders and not to your or my ideals of how the Internet should work. -- Shields, CrossLink. <<File: Re_ BBN Peering issues.TXT>>
-- ¢4i1å
Well that's all fine and dandy. however the internet has worked for 20 years that I have been asssociated with it, on the working principal that no one hassled or encumbered peering charges and there were no board rooms or stockholders and that is why it worked, because people knew what they were doing.
The reason it's worked is that connecting network A to network B generally provides value to both, so we've had a multi-decade connectfest. Value of connecting exceeded cost of connecting. Lately we are seeing shadings between the traditional "customer/peer" dichotomy. Traditionally peers treated each other as true equals because the cost of determining the relative value to A of connecting to B and to B of connecting to A in order to determine who should pay whom, including badwill cost, exceeded the expected payment. BBN thinks is no longer the case and if you are going to convince them otherwise, you'll have to convince them that it is in *their* best interest to continue free peering with Exodus, not that it is in "the Internet's" best interest. As Karl says, an effective way to do that is to cancel your BBN contract. In fact this is almost certainly the only effective way to convince them. If you're not a BBN customer there is no reason they should listen to you. -- Shields, CrossLink.
According to BBN's version of the story, Exodus is a customer and not a peer. If I had my way I would offer every BBN customer that was not dual homed free connectivity to one of our Data Centers for a year. Unfortunately we are not a traditional access provider in that we offer colocation connectivty rather than circuit connectivity. At any rate, I agree that the ultimate decision will be made by the stockholders and BBN customers. It is unfortunate that in the mean time a few unknowing BBN customers will lose connectivity to some of the largest web sites on the Internet. Mark Michael Shields wrote:
The reason it's worked is that connecting network A to network B generally provides value to both, so we've had a multi-decade connectfest. Value of connecting exceeded cost of connecting.
Lately we are seeing shadings between the traditional "customer/peer" dichotomy. Traditionally peers treated each other as true equals because the cost of determining the relative value to A of connecting to B and to B of connecting to A in order to determine who should pay whom, including badwill cost, exceeded the expected payment.
BBN thinks is no longer the case and if you are going to convince them otherwise, you'll have to convince them that it is in *their* best interest to continue free peering with Exodus, not that it is in "the Internet's" best interest.
As Karl says, an effective way to do that is to cancel your BBN contract. In fact this is almost certainly the only effective way to convince them. If you're not a BBN customer there is no reason they should listen to you. -- Shields, CrossLink.
-- *************************************************************************** Mark Tripod - Senior Network Architect - Exodus Communications http://www.exodus.net - (888) 2-EXODUS - support@exodus.net ASN 3967 - NASDAQ (EXDS) - Direct: (408) 346-2389
At any rate, I agree that the ultimate decision will be made by the stockholders and BBN customers. It is unfortunate that in the mean time a few unknowing BBN customers will lose connectivity to some of the largest web sites on the Internet.
Yes. If I were a BBN customer I'd be very upset -- because BBN would have reduced the value of my connection to them. Not because they are violating Internet ideals. -- Shields, CrossLink.
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Michael Shields wrote:
At any rate, I agree that the ultimate decision will be made by the stockholders and BBN customers. It is unfortunate that in the mean time a few unknowing BBN customers will lose connectivity to some of the largest web sites on the Internet.
Yes. If I were a BBN customer I'd be very upset -- because BBN would have reduced the value of my connection to them. Not because they are violating Internet ideals.
As luck would have it, BBN is waiting on me to renew our T3 Monday. I'd say that should give me a good opportunity to let them know how I feel! Now if GoodNet would finally deliver their circuit to us I'd feel much less worried. -- Tracy Snell (312) 588-2900 President, EnterAct, L.L.C. http://www.enteract.com tjs@enteract.com
Henry Linneweh wrote:
Adding Joe Blow to the picture is like elevating A Janitor to Director of Network Services and turning him/her loose in the NOC.
I know a nation-wide ISP which is being directed by an ex-fastfood manager. Note also my new address. --vadim PS Reality is more screwed up than you imagine.
participants (7)
-
Goldstein_William＠bns.att.com -
Henry Linneweh -
Karl Denninger -
mark＠exodus.net -
shields＠crosslink.net -
Tracy J. Snell -
Vadim Antonov