Symmetry, DSL, and all that
Not a very informative discussion. Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4:
1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl... ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric. -- Fletcher Kittredge GWI 8 Pomerleau Street Biddeford, ME 04005-9457 207-602-1134
The backend is still symmetric. It's still something like 1.25 gigs up and 2.5 gigs down. You can only beat that going to AE. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fletcher Kittredge" <fkittred@gwi.net> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 12:57:08 PM Subject: Symmetry, DSL, and all that Not a very informative discussion. Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4:
1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl... ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric. -- Fletcher Kittredge GWI 8 Pomerleau Street Biddeford, ME 04005-9457 207-602-1134
Damn A key... I mean asymmetric. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 1:00:04 PM Subject: Re: Symmetry, DSL, and all that The backend is still symmetric. It's still something like 1.25 gigs up and 2.5 gigs down. You can only beat that going to AE. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fletcher Kittredge" <fkittred@gwi.net> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 12:57:08 PM Subject: Symmetry, DSL, and all that Not a very informative discussion. Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4:
1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl... ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric. -- Fletcher Kittredge GWI 8 Pomerleau Street Biddeford, ME 04005-9457 207-602-1134
The backend is still symmetric. It's still something like 1.25 gigs up and 2.5 gigs down. You can only beat that going to AE.
Truth is, once the user is achieving what they consider to be acceptable performance they don't care if it is symmetric or not.
Not a very informative discussion.
Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4:
1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
Eight million FIOS customers does not even come close to representing the bulk of users out there. In fact, it does not even represent the majority of "high speed" customers out there.
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl...
ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric.
ADSL did not proceed the development of the consumer Internet in the commercial world. If it did, we would never have gone with dial-up modems. Patent dates have very little to do with commercial availability at all. Please give me an example of a purchasable service using ADSL prior to its use in Internet delivery. The number one reason ADSL succeeded and SDSL did not.....you could put an ADSL signal on the phone line you already had in your house, SDSL required a new loop to be ordered. Faster to provision and it can be done without a truck roll. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
The most important point is yes, that no one cares. If people wanted it, it would be sold to them. End. of. story. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Naslund" <SNaslund@medline.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 1:19:29 PM Subject: RE: Symmetry, DSL, and all that
The backend is still symmetric. It's still something like 1.25 gigs up and 2.5 gigs down. You can only beat that going to AE.
Truth is, once the user is achieving what they consider to be acceptable performance they don't care if it is symmetric or not.
Not a very informative discussion.
Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4:
1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
Eight million FIOS customers does not even come close to representing the bulk of users out there. In fact, it does not even represent the majority of "high speed" customers out there.
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl...
ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric.
ADSL did not proceed the development of the consumer Internet in the commercial world. If it did, we would never have gone with dial-up modems. Patent dates have very little to do with commercial availability at all. Please give me an example of a purchasable service using ADSL prior to its use in Internet delivery. The number one reason ADSL succeeded and SDSL did not.....you could put an ADSL signal on the phone line you already had in your house, SDSL required a new loop to be ordered. Faster to provision and it can be done without a truck roll. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
The most important point is yes, that no one cares. If people wanted it, it would be sold to them. End. of. story.
I will repeat myself, speaking very slowly. Please see original message for citations. Verizon has eight million FIOS customers. As of last year, Verizon decided it was worth it to supply all of those customers with symmetric speeds. So, by your reasoning, people wanted it, so it was sold to them. Verizon is only one of many fiber-based ISPs selling symmetric speeds.
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 02:41:30PM -0500, Fletcher Kittredge wrote:
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
The most important point is yes, that no one cares. If people wanted it, it would be sold to them. End. of. story.
I will repeat myself, speaking very slowly. Please see original message for citations.
Verizon has eight million FIOS customers. As of last year, Verizon decided it was worth it to supply all of those customers with symmetric speeds. So, by your reasoning, people wanted it, so it was sold to them.
Verizon is only one of many fiber-based ISPs selling symmetric speeds.
What Fletcher Wrote, in spades. I will wager that most residential customers have never heard of symmetric speeds. I also will wager that they would like to be able to send large mail faster, upload to Yahoo! and other web hosting services faster, and so on. I know that *this* particular Cox Business customer would like faster uplink speeds, and doesn't see 20 MBps in either direction on the best days; since this is the threshold for "broadband" according to Uncle Charlie, Cox is not providing me "broadband" service. Before I got into this, I "owned" large to very large IBM mainframe computers. There *always* was latent demand for bigger and faster, much the same way an Interstate highway, on the day it is opened for service, is *always* over its design capacity immediately, on the day it is opened. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO mikea@mikea.ath.cx Tired old sysadmin
On March 2, 2015 at 13:21 nanog@ics-il.net (Mike Hammett) wrote:
The most important point is yes, that no one cares. If people wanted it, it would be sold to them. End. of. story.
That presumes you can predict what will be sold tomorrow, which is more what this discussion is about. If people wanted smartphones in 2006 they would have been sold to them, etc. Ooops, not really until the iphone launched in 2007. etc. Besides, the comment presumes a competitive market which it isn't, in almost all US markets last mile is a monopoly or very small N (like 2 or 3) oligopoly. You can choose between asymmetric service from the CATV company OR asymmetric service from your telco. Aha, you apparently want asymmetric service! Well I suppose that's settled! -- -Barry Shein The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*
On 03/02/2015 02:19 PM, Naslund, Steve wrote:
The backend is still symmetric. It's still something like 1.25 gigs up and 2.5 gigs down. You can only beat that going to AE.
Truth is, once the user is achieving what they consider to be acceptable performance they don't care if it is symmetric or not.
Not a very informative discussion.
Points of fact...
From Verizon's January filings regarding 2014Q4: 1. Verizon has about eight million FIOS customers. 2. "Fifty-nine percent of FiOS consumer Internet customers subscribed to data speeds of at least 50Mbps, up from 46 percent one year earlier."
Eight million FIOS customers does not even come close to representing the bulk of users out there. In fact, it does not even represent the majority of "high speed" customers out there.
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way? Hi Steve,
I live in the Tampa Bay area and I see Verizon commercial all the time where other ISP customers are complaining that theirs ISP take so long to upload pictures, backups, etc. Plus there are commercial with people on an escalator where the up escalator is much slower than the down escalator and people are complaining up should be as fast as down. Regards, Steve
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/verizon-fios-finally-symmetrical-upl...
ADSL development proceeded the development of the consumer Internet. The original patent was filed in 1988. DSL was designed originally to deliver video in an ISDN/ATM world. For that reason, it was asymmetric. ADSL did not proceed the development of the consumer Internet in the commercial world. If it did, we would never have gone with dial-up modems. Patent dates have very little to do with commercial availability at all. Please give me an example of a purchasable service using ADSL prior to its use in Internet delivery. The number one reason ADSL succeeded and SDSL did not.....you could put an ADSL signal on the phone line you already had in your house, SDSL required a new loop to be ordered. Faster to provision and it can be done without a truck roll.
Steven Naslund Chicago IL
-- Stephen Clark *NetWolves Managed Services, LLC.* Director of Technology Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.clark@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com
"Naslund, Steve" <SNaslund@medline.com> writes:
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
You must not get out much. There's a whole Verizon ad campaign about "half fast Internet". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5WWFuJeM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqeDokFnok -r
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
You must not get out much. There's a whole Verizon ad campaign about "half fast Internet".
And no one seems to care about it. By the way, Verizon commercials do not run everywhere. Like Chicago or anywhere else that FIOS is not available. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
"Naslund, Steve" <SNaslund@medline.com> writes:
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
You must not get out much. There's a whole Verizon ad campaign about "half fast Internet".
And no one seems to care about it. By the way, Verizon commercials do not run everywhere. Like Chicago or anywhere else that FIOS is not available.
So let me get this straight - you conclude that there are no commercials and opine that nobody cares because you're not seeing FIOS commercials that talk about how great their symmetry is... when you live in a place that there is no FIOS. It's almost as if someone knows how to target their marketing dollars isn't it? Shocking.
Steven Naslund Chicago IL
Rob Seastrom Leesburg VA 75 symmetric FIOS, 9.9ms to Equinix.
Well, it's not quite that simple. I run a global network so I buy lots of services in lots of countries and areas so I can tell you what out there even though I don't see FIOS commercials on my local TV channels, we are quite aware of the capabilities of FIOS and its competitors. I have lots of FIOS services, various cable services, Uverse, Xfinity, most carrier gig E services. I have both business class and residential services as well as dedicated fiber paths and microwave systems so yeah, I know what service is available just about anywhere you would like to discuss. Steven Naslund Chicago IL -----Original Message-----
From a Verizon press release last summer, all FIOS speeds are now symmetric.
And no one cares. I don't even see Verizon commercials crowing about how great it is to have symmetry. If customers loved it that much don't you think they would market that way?
You must not get out much. There's a whole Verizon ad campaign about "half fast Internet".
And no one seems to care about it. By the way, Verizon commercials do not run everywhere. Like Chicago or anywhere else that FIOS is not available.
So let me get this straight - you conclude that there are no commercials and opine that nobody cares because you're not seeing FIOS commercials that talk about how great their symmetry is... when you live in a place that there is no FIOS. It's almost as if someone knows how to target their marketing dollars isn't it? Shocking.
Steven Naslund Chicago IL
Rob Seastrom Leesburg VA 75 symmetric FIOS, 9.9ms to Equinix.
participants (7)
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Barry Shein -
Fletcher Kittredge -
Mike A -
Mike Hammett -
Naslund, Steve -
Rob Seastrom -
Steve Clark