On Tue, 8 May 2001, Wing Wong wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Paul Lantinga wrote:
Justin, et al, do you have any *proof* that these attacks are coming from Chinese attackers on Chinese machines? We may never know since mainland china admins never respond to abuse mails. Ever consider the possibility that the admins in question don't understand English? It'd be like if someone sends you a Big5 or SJIS encoded message complaining about spam or cracks and all you see is binary jiberish on your screen. Even romanized communications would be difficult to understand.
I can use babelfish, why can't they? Yes, babelfish is less than perfect, but I can usually grok the gist of an email. And if babelfish isnt good enough, there's others. FWIW I've had a chinese friend in canada send a BIG5 email once and the same -- no response. -Dan
Well there may be a myriad of reasons on why the admins of those ISPs do not respond: 1. abuse/postmaster goes to some mailbox no one reads like root which contains a bunch of other messages. 2. Language issue has been mentioned and it's a valid one. I don't think many admins are aware of those translators. 3. They don't know how to handle such cases. 4. They don't care? I don't think the encoding matters much since one is sending from a non-Big5/SJIS encoding to Big5/SJIS encoding and those that support Big5/SJIS support the other encodings. The other way around might be a problem though. But the nonresponse is a valid concern. I wonder if I'll be censored soon. :-) Regards, Neil D. Quiogue PSINet Hong Kong Ltd. "Information and attachments herein are intended for the named recipients only. It may contain attorney-client privileged or confidential matter. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately, and destroy the original message. Do not disclose the contents to anyone. Thank you." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@anime.net> To: "Wing Wong" <dualwing@pacbell.net> Cc: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:50 PM Subject: RE: black hat .cn networks
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Wing Wong wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Paul Lantinga wrote:
Justin, et al, do you have any *proof* that these attacks are coming
from
Chinese attackers on Chinese machines? We may never know since mainland china admins never respond to abuse mails. Ever consider the possibility that the admins in question don't understand English? It'd be like if someone sends you a Big5 or SJIS encoded message complaining about spam or cracks and all you see is binary jiberish on your screen. Even romanized communications would be difficult to understand.
I can use babelfish, why can't they?
Yes, babelfish is less than perfect, but I can usually grok the gist of an email.
And if babelfish isnt good enough, there's others.
FWIW I've had a chinese friend in canada send a BIG5 email once and the same -- no response.
-Dan
On Tue, May 08, 2001, neil d. quiogue wrote:
I don't think the encoding matters much since one is sending from a non-Big5/SJIS encoding to Big5/SJIS encoding and those that support Big5/SJIS support the other encodings. The other way around might be a problem though.
But the nonresponse is a valid concern. I wonder if I'll be censored soon. :-)
Regards,
Neil D. Quiogue PSINet Hong Kong Ltd.
Hi, How about a line translated which says something like: "To translate this from English to your local language, please try $WEBSITE." So, how about we get imput as to the best English-Japanese translation service online, and then *cough* attempt to standardise on contacting chinese networks this way? They might appreciate the effort. Well, we can then at least say "hey, we TRIED, right?" before the more drastic measures are pulled. But if we agree on a decent translation website URL they can go to, we can get some human-translated chinese to cut and paste into emails. As much as I'd like to point out the internet is still very english-centric, we should really make an effort before stamping them as unresponsive. Adrian
"Information and attachments herein are intended for the named recipients only. It may contain attorney-client privileged or confidential matter. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately, and destroy the original message. Do not disclose the contents to anyone. Thank you."
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@anime.net> To: "Wing Wong" <dualwing@pacbell.net> Cc: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:50 PM Subject: RE: black hat .cn networks
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Wing Wong wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Paul Lantinga wrote:
Justin, et al, do you have any *proof* that these attacks are coming
from
Chinese attackers on Chinese machines? We may never know since mainland china admins never respond to abuse mails. Ever consider the possibility that the admins in question don't understand English? It'd be like if someone sends you a Big5 or SJIS encoded message complaining about spam or cracks and all you see is binary jiberish on your screen. Even romanized communications would be difficult to understand.
I can use babelfish, why can't they?
Yes, babelfish is less than perfect, but I can usually grok the gist of an email.
And if babelfish isnt good enough, there's others.
FWIW I've had a chinese friend in canada send a BIG5 email once and the same -- no response.
-Dan
-- Adrian Chadd "How could we possibly use sex to get <adrian@creative.net.au> what we want? Sex _IS_ what we want!" -- Fraser
On Tue, May 08, 2001, Adrian Chadd wrote:
So, how about we get imput as to the best English-Japanese translation service online, and then *cough* attempt to standardise on contacting chinese networks this way?
Of course I meant english-chinese , I was just thinking at the time of how much effort the Japanese FreeBSD developers put into talking to the rest of us in English. :-) -- Adrian Chadd "How could we possibly use sex to get <adrian@creative.net.au> what we want? Sex _IS_ what we want!" -- Fraser
On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 06:55:00PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote:
So, how about we get imput as to the best English-Japanese translation service online, and then *cough* attempt to standardise on contacting chinese networks this way?
Why would we standardize on contacting Chinese networks with a Japanese translation tool?
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Adrian Chadd wrote:
"To translate this from English to your local language, please try $WEBSITE." So, how about we get imput as to the best English-Japanese translation service online, and then *cough* attempt to standardise on contacting chinese networks this way? They might appreciate the effort. Well, we can then at least say "hey, we TRIED, right?" before the more drastic measures are pulled. But if we agree on a decent translation website URL they can go to, we can get some human-translated chinese to cut and paste into emails.
Actually ive been thinking of setting up a page where you can generate native-language complaint messages by selecting a language, and then filling in the blanks with pulldowns, eg: "Language: [Russian|Chinese|Korean|Japanese|Spanish|...] To whom it may concern: We [are receiving|were exploited] by [ddos|portmap|named|...] attacks from [ip address|netblock] on [month] [day] [year] at [time]. Our timezone offset is [UTC-xxxx]. Please take corrective action and notify me of the results. If you do not speak [English|German|French|...] you can use the webpage http://... to compose your reply. Attached are logs detailing the attacks. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter." This would of course require the assistance of native speakers. I should be able to get russian, chinese, japanese, french, german covered. My russian friend tells me that anyone operating a russian network should have at least a basic understanding of english. Even when I sent them complaints in russian, they responded in good english. -Dan
My russian friend tells me that anyone operating a russian network should have at least a basic understanding of english. Even when I sent them complaints in russian, they responded in good english.
Off topic a bit: Sometimes their english is better than mine. On one occaision dealing with some weirdness from a .ru domain, I found a local ex-navy russian translator and he helped me formulate an e-mail and responses that got some problems dealt with. Maybe a list of multilingual network operations people would be useful... and some standard boilerplate in the required languages and character sets. I would want to have the verbage triply checked to make sure it would not be mis-understood in the foreign language and cause a major incident. --Mike--
I happened to act as the sysadmin for ChinaNet back in 1995 for a while, and I come from China so I guess I can help a little bit on what the sysadmin situation "might be" in China. However, I can be completely wrong because I left China in 1998. Please see my comments interleaved, again this is my personal opinion only and might not reflect today's situation. This message will only help you guys how it was in past. "neil d. quiogue" wrote:
Well there may be a myriad of reasons on why the admins of those ISPs do not respond: 1. abuse/postmaster goes to some mailbox no one reads like root which contains a bunch of other messages.
The training for the sysadmin of China ISP is quite limited and it is quite possible that some root messages were not readed in time, it might be read weeks or months later, so even it was read by sysadmin, he or she might not response due to the delay.
2. Language issue has been mentioned and it's a valid one. I don't think many admins are aware of those translators.
The English skill is definitely a big issue for those sysadmins, and this problem made them harder to master all the techniques required by sysadmin job.
3. They don't know how to handle such cases.
More or less. See above no.2 comment.
4. They don't care?
I partially agree. The no.2 and no.3 contributes to this a lot. It is very embarrassed that the China ISPs didn't and maybe couldn't respond the abuse reports as other ISP operator does in the world, but I do believe they are making progress everyday along with the Internet development in China and coordination of networks grows. Human resource is always a big issue for China PTT. flian
I don't think the encoding matters much since one is sending from a non-Big5/SJIS encoding to Big5/SJIS encoding and those that support Big5/SJIS support the other encodings. The other way around might be a problem though.
But the nonresponse is a valid concern. I wonder if I'll be censored soon. :-)
Regards,
Neil D. Quiogue PSINet Hong Kong Ltd.
"Information and attachments herein are intended for the named recipients only. It may contain attorney-client privileged or confidential matter. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately, and destroy the original message. Do not disclose the contents to anyone. Thank you."
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@anime.net> To: "Wing Wong" <dualwing@pacbell.net> Cc: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:50 PM Subject: RE: black hat .cn networks
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Wing Wong wrote:
On Mon, 7 May 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Paul Lantinga wrote:
Justin, et al, do you have any *proof* that these attacks are coming
from
Chinese attackers on Chinese machines? We may never know since mainland china admins never respond to abuse mails. Ever consider the possibility that the admins in question don't understand English? It'd be like if someone sends you a Big5 or SJIS encoded message complaining about spam or cracks and all you see is binary jiberish on your screen. Even romanized communications would be difficult to understand.
I can use babelfish, why can't they?
Yes, babelfish is less than perfect, but I can usually grok the gist of an email.
And if babelfish isnt good enough, there's others.
FWIW I've had a chinese friend in canada send a BIG5 email once and the same -- no response.
-Dan
On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 12:01:43PM -0400, Franklin Lian exclaimed:
I happened to act as the sysadmin for ChinaNet back in 1995 for a while, and I come from China so I guess I can help a little bit on what the sysadmin situation "might be" in China. However, I can be completely wrong because I left China in 1998.
Please see my comments interleaved, again this is my personal opinion only and might not reflect today's situation. This message will only help you guys how it was in past.
for myself, at least, I just want to say I really appreciated being able to read a response from somebody that actually had experience on this issue. Up until your post, everything written was conjecture and guesswork - nobody had experience _inside_ the network(s) in question. Thanks for shedding some light on the subject. -- Scott Francis scott@ [work:] v i r t u a l i s . c o m Systems Analyst darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t West Coast Network Ops GPG keyid 0xCB33CCA7 illum oportet crescere me autem minui
I'd have to second Scott's appreciation for the Admin's point-of-view in China from someone who has experienced it firsthand. Thank you for contributing, Franklin. Justin Hinderliter
On Tue, 8 May 2001, Franklin Lian wrote:
4. They don't care? I partially agree. The no.2 and no.3 contributes to this a lot. Human resource is always a big issue for China PTT.
This is why they set up the infamous autoresponder ignore-bot "abuse@cn.net" and "anti-spam@ns.chinanet.cn.net" which replies to any mail with: "In your SPAM eMail,I can't find the IP or the IP is not by my control.Please give me the correct IP.Thank you."? It certainly makes it look like it's mostly #4 for chinanet. Apparently, things only got worse after you left. -Dan
participants (8)
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Adrian Chadd -
Dan Hollis -
Franklin Lian -
Justin Hinderliter -
mike harrison -
neil d. quiogue -
Scott Francis -
Shawn McMahon