-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Peter Cohen wrote:

2. with regard to safety of laptops, if you mean that exec's are targets of robberies, than this further lends value i suspect of keeping everything on the network and having passwords to reach the network from the laptop, etc.... Nothing on the laptop but pics of the kids and mp3's. all downloaded legally of course... secure computing/safeword/etc.. to reach your remote files would seem like a good idea...

That sounds like good advise, however being the sibling of a former executive from the same company as the OP, I don't think that advice would, er... fly (bad pun). The problem isn't securing the data, it's educating the user... and that can't be done in the time between today and the next executives flight. Laptop security really sucks these days... this is certainly an area for a lot more focused thought. One could easily spend less than $1000 paying off baggage handlers to side-track laptops, boot them one time from a CD containing a rootkit installer, and put them on the original or next flight. Which exec would ever know what happened? - -Jim P. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE3OtnMyG7U7lo69MRAu3uAJ0Q4O2SYUiBmg9CCKcImXxDAWTijwCeLcBC SxBtOx81VtZ24nzAWfIQyMA= =upUt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Of course take precautions with leaving files on the network, and using "secure" remote access to those files, but I don't necessarily trust most users to not keep some sort of sensitive data on local disk, so we started rolling out PGP whole disk encryption... Chris On 8/11/06, Neil J. McRae <neil@domino.org> wrote:

I think the issue is more to do with theft by dodgy baggage handlers (or randy if he sees a disclaimer notice on the laptop case in which case he'd throw it in the trash and ask the airport concierge to make an announceent about it over the airport PA system ;)). If you have data that is so sensitive then in theory you should already have a security platform (encryption etc) on the laptop as you are just as likely to get mugged in the street as you are to get your luggage stolen. One thing that I know for some smaller companies is that their disaster recovery plans may need reviewing in light of this policy.

Regards, Neil -- Neil J. McRae -- Alive and Kicking neil@DOMINO.ORG

-----Original Message----- From: "Mike Lyon" <mike.lyon@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:37:23 To:"Cullen, Michael" <michael.cullen@umusic.com> Cc:nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: New Laptop Polices

Are laptops being questioned now in the UK when going through security? I would assume that they are probably wiping every laptop and doing the explosive check that they do...

-Mike

On 8/11/06, Cullen, Michael <michael.cullen@umusic.com> wrote:

...

Greetings all,

Given the new threats and the change in policy with the airlines and traveling in and around the UK, has anyone changed their laptop and portable computing device policy? We are being questioned about the safety of executives traveling with their laptops.

Thank You,

Michael Cullen

Global Security, Universal Music Group

818 286-5473 (w) | 818 919-6974 (c)

UMG GSO Michael (aim) | UMG.GSO.Michael (gtalk) | michael.cullen@umusic.com (msn)

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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, David Lesher wrote:

It's also a great time to plant some file that POOF the authorities will decrypt & show it's kiddie porn. {Or just hide same in your browser cache.} Do YOU know what every frigging file on your machine is?

and here I was thinking: "Quick! buy stock in whole disk encryption software makers!" do you want to leave (banging around in baggage-monkey-land aside) your laptop where it's going to be out of your hands for several hours like that?

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Joseph S D Yao wrote:

Do modern laptops have disk drives that are that hard to remove?

one screw and 'pop' out comes all dell laptop harddrives... or boot from cd, usb->copy all data, slide back into case and move on to next. you have 2 hours between baggage arrival and load-plane time so you do the math! :)

Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. (that is me) wrote:

Christopher L. Morrow wrote:

...

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Joseph S D Yao wrote:

...

Do modern laptops have disk drives that are that hard to remove?

one screw and 'pop' out comes all dell laptop harddrives... or boot from cd, usb->copy all data, slide back into case and move on to next.

you have 2 hours between baggage arrival and load-plane time so you do the math! :)

I guess I mis-understood his intent. [1]

In any case, it occurred to me that in today's throw-away commodity computer world, why don't we return to those thrilling days of yesteryear where we expected the destination to have all the stuff we needed, pretty much? All the files on a central server (where, like the old central file room they will be safer) accessed from appliances installed everywhere like lights and telephones. Maybe give them a catchy name like "minitel" or something.

Forgot the footnote. Hate it when people do that! [1] Only the (was first,now...) second mistake since dinner. -- Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/

On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 02:28:33AM +0000, Christopher L. Morrow wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Joseph S D Yao wrote:

...

Do modern laptops have disk drives that are that hard to remove?

one screw and 'pop' out comes all dell laptop harddrives... or boot from cd, usb->copy all data, slide back into case and move on to next.

you have 2 hours between baggage arrival and load-plane time so you do the math! :)

I had more in mind removing it from the laptop before someone else could. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Here's a thought.... most airlines offer expedited freight service (i.e. Delta Dash). One could seal their lappy up in a box, mark it accordingly, and ship to for hold at destination airport. Chances are it will arrive before they do. - -Jim P. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE3VRNMyG7U7lo69MRAkFwAKCAgTJhjsAv+Ur7dj9pDhRy+K8JyACdHGlh XD6b2MXZElTky4R73mc+7/8= =n3mK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 09:31:52PM -0500, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:

Joseph S D Yao wrote:

...

Do modern laptops have disk drives that are that hard to remove?

Let us say "No, they are not that hard to remove."

Now what? (Recall that this thread started with a situation where it was said that carry-on was limited to passport, medicine in small quantities, and precious little else.)

No, you were right about my intent. If you're flying from the States you can carry this. Flying in the reverse direction is the problem - this week. (The rules already changed, today; are we sure that disk drives are still on the Index Proscriptus? What about RAM drives?) You could also rush-express it ahead of you, but that's a bit of a gamble. Less so if you encrypt it and keep a copy at home. Sort of like faxing your disk drive ahead. And, going along with what I think you later said, if you just leave the laptop itself at home and stick the disk drive into an identical laptop provided for that purpose at the destination, you could never tell the difference. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.

On Aug 12, 2006, at 12:16 AM, joelja wrote:

Fundamentally I don't see how changes in airline policy would have a significant effect in the steps required to secure a laptop against theft or tampering.

Because laptops are stolen / lost infrequently enough to allow replacement measures to be non-trivial. Just because IT can replace your laptop & its contents doesn't mean it's cheap, easy, quick, or even possible when you are overseas. If I have to replace the laptop at the far end of every flight I take, the procedure must be essentially idiot proof and instantaneous. That requires a lot more time, effort, money, resources, etc. -- TTFN, patrick

Michael Nicks wrote:

Do we all really believe this laptop ban will last? I sure don't.

I think there are two issues in this thread -- this must refer to the air travel bans. I don't know, but I'll bet it not only persists, it will get worse. The other issue has to do with the trend to thoughtlessly carry valuable data (which in many cases belongs to somebody who didn't get a say-so in its care) in laptops which are not protected. Somehow somebody is going to do something draconian to get that under control. Some other form of executive dick-waving is going to have to be developed that does not put so much at risk. -- Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/

On 8/11/06, Christopher L. Morrow <christopher.morrow@verizonbusiness.com> wrote:

...

It's also a great time to plant some file that POOF the authorities will decrypt & show it's kiddie porn. {Or just hide same in your browser cache.} Do YOU know what every frigging file on your machine is?

and here I was thinking: "Quick! buy stock in whole disk encryption software makers!"

Any laptop NOT using full disk encryption from the moment of boot-up is begging for trouble. As has been pointed out many times, laptops DO get lost, and not just in airline facilities. This can be accomplished with just about any OS. Some require loading an OS kernel first with a custom ramdisk or mini-partition to kick off the encrypted disk driver; others can use off the shelf products designed expressly for this purpose. The only thing that bugs most people about full disk encryption is that it often doesn't support "hibernation" -- but if the hardware has a standby power save mode that is low enough on power consumption (S3 or similar), that shouldn't be a problem. -- -- Todd Vierling <tv@duh.org> <tv@pobox.com> <todd@vierling.name>

joe mcguckin wrote:

Why not put critical or proprietary files on a flash key? I carry a 4G flash key on my keyring. Airport security has never given it a second look. If the laptop ends up in the hands of a sticky-fingered baggage handler (or the TSA), there's nothing there for them to find.

Recent reports said you were allowed to carry passport, medicines required for the trip, and one or two other items that did not include any metallic objects as I recall.

And, to defeat the nosey customs folk who now want to login and rummage around your files when you enter the US, create a dummy account and give them that login when they insist on inspecting your laptop for "child porn". I've got nothing to hide, but I don't want some ham handed idiot accidently deleting stuff either...

I wonder what they are trained to look for. -- Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/

Scott Morris wrote:

"E-mail rest in peace?

That is what I tried to indicate. An exchange somewhere (I can't now find it) went something like: God is dead - Nietzsche Nietzsche is dead - God Email is dead - Larry To which I added that it will someday be Larry is dead - Email but it will get lost in somebody's spam sump.

A cause does not create/allow action? "

Ex turpi causa non oritur actio -- Lawyer Latin for "No cause of action may be founded upon an immoral or illegal act." which is my answer to the If-you-don't-deliver-my-spam-I'll-sue-you crowd. I am not a lawyer. And I have never been trained in Latin. -- Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/

Hi, My parents flew back from New York to Manchester yesterday - complete with clear plastic bag - less cough syrup which was refused entry onto the plane. Ti it seems to be (some) flights terminating in the UK not simply originating there. Ben -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Roland Perry Sent: 14 August 2006 14:12 To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: New Laptop Polices In article <00ab01c6bf3b$4885c5e0$6e259ed0@amer.cisco.com>, Scott Morris <swm@emanon.com> writes

Not that I have a whole lot to add (other than we're spending lots of time talking about something only affecting UK --:> US flights at this

moment)... Actually, it was affecting UK-anywhere flights (including anywhere-US that transits UK). And a subset was affecting US-UK (including US-anywhere transiting UK). The rules have been changed now, still no liquids/creams, but you can have a *single* carry-on that includes any manner of electrical items and is no bigger than 17.7"x13.7"x6.2" (it's round numbers in cm). The rationing is to limit the number of things they have to examine, rather than because the airplane bins are too small. Handbags, laptops etc have to go *inside* the one bag mentioned above; what they haven't explained is whether pocket contents have to as well. -- Roland Perry

Given that business executives need their laptops, and that they largely fly commercial across the Atlantic, I suspect that any ban on laptops will not last long. Regards Marshall On Aug 12, 2006, at 8:08 AM, Barton F. Bruce wrote:

...

Given the new threats and the change in policy with the airlines and traveling in and around the UK, has anyone changed their laptop and portable computing device policy? We are being questioned about the safety of executives traveling with their laptops.

You have just lost a valuable shield and weapon!

No longer will you have an almost closed laptop lid to tuck your fingers under while parrying box-cutter thrusts with the base of the laptop used as a shield.

And no more ULTIMATE frisbee with rectangular corners or hand held blunt hatchet to crunch holes in a hijacker's skull.

And viewing it as a more civilized weapon, you have now been deprived of the means to play for your seat row-mate's enlightenment any of the myriad of 9/11 DVDs, that an ever growing hoard will proclaim prove 9/11 could not possibly have been done by those we have been told did it, or, even better, some of which present compelling arguments that 9/11 was the much desired and occasionally mentioned "2nd Pearl Harbor" to be orchestrated to forward various non publicised but very domestic agendas.

I suspect dumb thin clients are in many of our futures. Rental shops or company branch offices will be well stocked with inexpensive units and whatever you need to run boots up from a DVD or USB thumb drive. It is hard to leave anything sensitive on a machine that has no hard drive.

Pity the folks gearing up to sell internet access on flights. Perhaps per seat video screens double as thin client monitors. Watch the business grow of the first airline offering such service.

Or we will have to wait until the next president, if we are even allowed to have elections under marshall law after a 9/11 jumbo-REDUX someone we should hope is protecting us might even be working on right now.

The single biggest thing that is bypassing a feckless or even "owned" press is the internet, and our job is to keep it as free and as open as possible.