Re: Where to buy Internet IP addresses
Re sending... I know operational content is frowned on :) ... However in an effort to avoid this thread getting kicked to the curb... we have just seen days of the same arguments between the same posters over and over. Let's gather some data on current operational (there's that evil word again) practices and see how its working or not working out. Anyone care to field my question? how do existing providers hand out space? I know that Hurricane electric (via its tunnel service) hands out a /64 by default and a /48 is a click away. How do other providers handle it? I'm in the us and only have native v4 connectivity :( Do the various traditional last mile providers (sprint/Verizon/att/patch etc ) offer it for t1 and better? If they do then what do they hand out by default, what's available, at what price point and what's the upgrade path? Is it one click like he? No provider I have talked to offers it for residential connectivity in the united states. What does free.fr do? If there is this level of confusion and disagreement around addressing schemes then will it ever be offered to residences over traditional last mile loops? ------Original Message------ From: Stephen Sprunk To: Bill Stewart Cc: north American Noise and Off-topic Gripes Cc: Joe Greco Subject: Re: Where to buy Internet IP addresses Sent: May 4, 2009 2:36 PM Bill Stewart wrote:
When I came back, I found this ugly EUI-64 thing instead, so not only was autoconfiguration much uglier, but you needed a /56 instead of a /64 if you were going to subnet.
It's supposed to be a /48 per customer, on the assumption that 16 bits of subnet information is sufficient for virtually anyone; exceptions should be rare enough that they can be handled as special cases. The /56 monstrosity came about because a US cable company wanted to assign a prefix to every home they passed, regardless of whether it contained a customer, so that they'd never need to renumber anything ever again. However, that would require they get more than the /32 minimum allocation, and ARIN policy doesn't allow _potential_ customers as a justification for getting a larger allocation, so they had to shrink the per-customer prefix down to a /56 to fit them all into a single /32. If all those assignments were to _real_ customers, they could have gotten a /24 and given each customer a /48 as expected. And, after that, many folks who can't wrap their heads around the size of the IPv6 address space appear to be obsessed with doing the same in other cases where even that weak justification doesn't apply...
Does anybody know why anybody thought it was a good idea to put the extra bits in the middle, or for IPv6 to adopt them?
Why the switch from EUI-48 to EUI-64? Someone in the IEEE got worried about running short of MAC (er, EUI-48) addresses at some point in the future, so they inserted 16 bits in the middle (after the OUI) to form an EUI-64 and are now "discouraging" new uses of EUI-48. The IETF decided to follow the IEEE's guidance and switch IPv6 autoconfig from EUI-48 to EUI-64, but FireWire is the only significant user of EUI-64 addresses to date; if you're using a link layer with EUI-48 addresses (e.g. Ethernet), an extra 16 bits (FFFE) get stuffed in the middle to transform it into the EUI-64 that IPv6 expects. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
Charles@thewybles.com wrote:
Anyone care to field my question?
I think many of your questions have been answered in past threads this month a couple of times.
how do existing providers hand out space? I know that Hurricane electric (via its tunnel service) hands out a /64 by default and a /48 is a click away.
First, I hate to compare HE's tunnel service to anything other than a tunnel service. Second, I don't think I've seen any last mile providers offering IPv6 without a tunnel setup of some type. The primary reasons being, there are service issues with deployed IPv6 and the CPE market is limited. Business class services hand out IPv6 like anything else. Here's your circuit, here's your static/BGP setup, do you need use to assign you some or did you bring your own?
How do other providers handle it? I'm in the us and only have native v4 connectivity :(
Tunneling is probably your only option for v6. Some small/medium providers have v6 deployed at the edge, but I suspect it's a limited deployment due to the QOS issues and lack of CPE support issues. Deploying to the mass residential market it doesn't make much sense right now.
Do the various traditional last mile providers (sprint/Verizon/att/patch etc ) offer it for t1 and better? If they do then what do they hand out by default, what's available, at what price point and what's the upgrade path? Is it one click like he?
Sprint I believe will give you tunnel service if you're a transit customer, and I'll keep my personal viewpoint on their IPv6 connectivity to myself. I believe Verizon business offers it, but I think they specialize in colo??? NTT and Global Crossing offer dual stack and are the only NSPs I know to do so (If HE qualifies, forgive me, as I don't know their network topology, but I do believe they offer dual stack in their POPs as well). So if you can get a circuit to any of those, you could probably get native v6 on that circuit.
No provider I have talked to offers it for residential connectivity in the united states.
I do, but I'm not in your area, and I only offer it on a customer requested basis and with a billion and one disclaimers. After all, there's a lot missing on the home network side of things.
What does free.fr do?
Provides services to France? Just guessing.
If there is this level of confusion and disagreement around addressing schemes then will it ever be offered to residences over traditional last mile loops?
It will be offered, and it will probably be bumpy. If the IETF doesn't narrow down and standardize some home network protocols to make home networking as plug and play as the current NAT double/triple NAT layouts that currently exist, then customers will be restricted on what they can use. Providers will deploy as they can or as they have to, but there will be restrictions to keep support costs down. Some of the addressing scheme arguments have valid issues, while others are a matter of local preference. The preference arguments can be safely ignored, as even in IPv4 world there are a variety of layouts. Some ISP's only allow a single IPv4 address, while others allow multiple. Some require PPP sessions, while others do not. Some require mandated equipment do MAC locking, etc. These types of preferences and differences between ISPs will not change with IPv6. The CPEs will have to cope. Example, an ISP may require DHCPv6 IA_TA addressing to CPE's with DHCPv6-PD. Another may require auto-config with DHCPv6-PD. Some will still use PPP while others will not. I'm sure there will be at least one ISP that won't support DHCPv6-PD at all. Jack
Hello all, Free.fr gives us a /64 to our ADSL/FTTH boxes, the autoprov interface does not give an option for more. For insights of how Free.fr does thing please see this RIPE presentation: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/content/presentations/ipv6-free.pd... best regards, Michel -----Message d'origine----- De : Charles@thewybles.com [mailto:Charles@thewybles.com] Envoyé : mardi 5 mai 2009 05:18 À : nanog@merit.edu Objet : Re: Where to buy Internet IP addresses Re sending... I know operational content is frowned on :) ... However in an effort to avoid this thread getting kicked to the curb... we have just seen days of the same arguments between the same posters over and over. Let's gather some data on current operational (there's that evil word again) practices and see how its working or not working out. Anyone care to field my question? how do existing providers hand out space? I know that Hurricane electric (via its tunnel service) hands out a /64 by default and a /48 is a click away. How do other providers handle it? I'm in the us and only have native v4 connectivity :( Do the various traditional last mile providers (sprint/Verizon/att/patch etc ) offer it for t1 and better? If they do then what do they hand out by default, what's available, at what price point and what's the upgrade path? Is it one click like he? No provider I have talked to offers it for residential connectivity in the united states. What does free.fr do? If there is this level of confusion and disagreement around addressing schemes then will it ever be offered to residences over traditional last mile loops? ------Original Message------ From: Stephen Sprunk To: Bill Stewart Cc: north American Noise and Off-topic Gripes Cc: Joe Greco Subject: Re: Where to buy Internet IP addresses Sent: May 4, 2009 2:36 PM Bill Stewart wrote:
When I came back, I found this ugly EUI-64 thing instead, so not only was autoconfiguration much uglier, but you needed a /56 instead of a /64 if you were going to subnet.
It's supposed to be a /48 per customer, on the assumption that 16 bits of subnet information is sufficient for virtually anyone; exceptions should be rare enough that they can be handled as special cases. The /56 monstrosity came about because a US cable company wanted to assign a prefix to every home they passed, regardless of whether it contained a customer, so that they'd never need to renumber anything ever again. However, that would require they get more than the /32 minimum allocation, and ARIN policy doesn't allow _potential_ customers as a justification for getting a larger allocation, so they had to shrink the per-customer prefix down to a /56 to fit them all into a single /32. If all those assignments were to _real_ customers, they could have gotten a /24 and given each customer a /48 as expected. And, after that, many folks who can't wrap their heads around the size of the IPv6 address space appear to be obsessed with doing the same in other cases where even that weak justification doesn't apply...
Does anybody know why anybody thought it was a good idea to put the extra bits in the middle, or for IPv6 to adopt them?
Why the switch from EUI-48 to EUI-64? Someone in the IEEE got worried about running short of MAC (er, EUI-48) addresses at some point in the future, so they inserted 16 bits in the middle (after the OUI) to form an EUI-64 and are now "discouraging" new uses of EUI-48. The IETF decided to follow the IEEE's guidance and switch IPv6 autoconfig from EUI-48 to EUI-64, but FireWire is the only significant user of EUI-64 addresses to date; if you're using a link layer with EUI-48 addresses (e.g. Ethernet), an extra 16 bits (FFFE) get stuffed in the middle to transform it into the EUI-64 that IPv6 expects. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
participants (3)
-
Charles＠thewybles.com -
Jack Bates -
Moriniaux Michel