I read with great interest the "Ungodly packet loss rates" thread. It appears that an Internet user did a reasonably good job of articulating his frustration with the quality of Internet service he was receiving. The response from the nanog list was generally unsympathetic, (with a very few notable exceptions such as Kent, Curtis and Tony). The user was told that his mail was "inappropriate" and was even called a "whiner" and told to "shut up," (comments which apparently were not considered inappropriate). I had a couple of thoughts about this thread: o If I were writing an Internet-II proposal, I would consider using this thread to bolster my case that my community of interest needs an Internet VPN such as Internet-II because the Internet operations community is unreceptive to complaints about the service I am receiving. o If I were reviewing Internet-II proposals, I might hope that I got done with my reviews before, for example, a University president sent mail to nanog complaining about the Internet service his or her university was receiving. -tjs