OT: Yahoo- apparently now an extension of the Chinese govt secret police....
Way OT, but very interesting- don't know if anyone saw this article about Yahoo collaborating with the Chinese government's police (from the BBC): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4221538.stm If this is true, I for one will stop using Yahoo- I have spent alot of time in Asia myself, and I am very aware of the nature of the Chinese secret police. But if the article is true, I guess Yahoo doesn't care about the opinion of the regular consumer when they can curry favor with a repressive regime by informing on people. So, if you email friends in China from a Yahoo account, you have been warned!
So, if you email friends in China from a Yahoo account, you have been warned!
What makes you think that gmail.com, mail.ru or your-isp.net is any different? Trust in human nature, perhaps? Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they do business, and for international companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very, very long. --Michael Dillon
However, clearly, companies doing business in China under this set of rules are placing profits ahead of human rights. I, for one, will avoid patronizing any organization I know to be engaged in such practices. Owen
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 10:54:03AM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:
However, clearly, companies doing business in China under this set of rules are placing profits ahead of human rights. I, for one, will avoid patronizing any organization I know to be engaged in such practices.
Owen
There has been constant reporting of US and other IT companies going into in China co-operating with the mainland Chinese government. The mainland Chinese government cares about human rights about as much as the average person cares about the rights of a Rigellian. For as long as I can remember, I have tried as hard as possible not to buy anything "Made in China" [unless I find that it's actually from Taiwan]. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 03:10:12PM +0100, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they do business, and for international companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very, very long.
Obeying the (local) law is, in most cases, very reasonable. But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the correct response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to hell". ---Rsk
On Sep 7, 2005, at 3:59 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 03:10:12PM +0100, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they do business, and for international companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very, very long.
Obeying the (local) law is, in most cases, very reasonable.
But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the correct response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to hell".
Not in *that* country, it's not. You knew the rules before you crossed the border. If you are there, you have to follow the rules. There is an argument to be made for not being in "that country" to begin with, but if you are there, you better comply. -- TTFN, patrick
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 04:05:48PM -0400, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Sep 7, 2005, at 3:59 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 03:10:12PM +0100, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they do business, and for international companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very, very long.
Obeying the (local) law is, in most cases, very reasonable.
But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the correct response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to hell".
Not in *that* country, it's not. You knew the rules before you crossed the border. If you are there, you have to follow the rules.
There is an argument to be made for not being in "that country" to begin with, but if you are there, you better comply.
So, let's do the logic, as this is a simple schoolchild exercise. If one has a conscience and a spine, then one says no to this kind of request. If one is in mainland China to do business, one is compelled not to say no to this kind of request.
From the first statement, if one does not to say no to this kind of request, then one does not have a conscience or a spine.
Let us take as given that if one is compelled to do something, that is to say that one is doing it, as that is the meaning of compel. Therefore, if one is in mainland China to do business, then one does not have a conscience or a spine. As I said, this is simple schoolchild logic, the kind we all supposedly learned in school. One may argue with the premises, but if one accepts the premises, one may not argue with the conclusion. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Joseph S D Yao wrote:
So, let's do the logic, as this is a simple schoolchild exercise.
[snip]
Therefore, if one is in mainland China to do business, then one does not have a conscience or a spine.
It is probably that one does not have a conscience, is insane and does not subscribe to to logical reason... Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving 430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade, I would have sold it! -Sean
Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving 430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade, I would have sold it!
Basic Trade: Some countries have an abundance of one thing while they lack another. So, what they have too much of is cheap, and too little of, is costly. It goes crazy from that point. China has a lot of cheap stuff and a lot of cheap labor, and importing from China and/or manufacturing in China is good business. To work in China, one of the biggest markets in the world, you follow China's rules. If you don't like the rules you don't have to. But what you guys spew out is China-hate. Is that the kind of propaganda you get fed in schools? I am happy we've been able to discuss this like adults, here on NANOG. After all, this is about human networking. Gadi.
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 12:07:41AM +0200, Gadi Evron wrote:
Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving 430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade, I would have sold it!
Basic Trade: Some countries have an abundance of one thing while they lack another.
So, what they have too much of is cheap, and too little of, is costly.
It goes crazy from that point.
China has a lot of cheap stuff and a lot of cheap labor, and importing from China and/or manufacturing in China is good business.
To work in China, one of the biggest markets in the world, you follow China's rules. If you don't like the rules you don't have to.
But what you guys spew out is China-hate. Is that the kind of propaganda you get fed in schools?
I am happy we've been able to discuss this like adults, here on NANOG. After all, this is about human networking.
I do not hate myself or any other Chinese people. I do hate the lack of respect for human rights shown by the mainland Chinese government, and the slave labor prisons otherwise known as "cheap labor". And the lack of self-respect that allows others to turn a blind eye to this for their own profit. -- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
I should add that my original statement pertains to (obviously) the Chinese *government* alone! I am concerned about the repression that the Chinese people experience, and the basic freedoms that they lack. As far as 'China hate' is concerned- this definately doesn't apply to me- many of my friends are from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. I lived for many years in the area, and speak pretty passable Mandarin myself (was pretty fluent, but it has deteriorated a bit, I'm afraid!). So, love the Chinese people, their culture, and history - resent the Chinese government's repression (though I personally believe the Hu Jin Tao *may* turn out to be a great improvement on leaders such as Jiang Zemin, Deng Xiaoping, and obviously Mao Zedong- I hear that Hu Jin Tao even met Hu Yaobang's widow, and plans a commemoration in the Great Hall of the People!!).
From: Joseph S D Yao <jsdy@center.osis.gov> To: Gadi Evron <ge@linuxbox.org> CC: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: OT: Yahoo- apparently now an extension of the Chinese govt secret police.... Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:38:17 -0400
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 12:07:41AM +0200, Gadi Evron wrote:
Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving 430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade, I would have sold it!
Basic Trade: Some countries have an abundance of one thing while they lack another.
So, what they have too much of is cheap, and too little of, is costly.
It goes crazy from that point.
China has a lot of cheap stuff and a lot of cheap labor, and importing from China and/or manufacturing in China is good business.
To work in China, one of the biggest markets in the world, you follow China's rules. If you don't like the rules you don't have to.
But what you guys spew out is China-hate. Is that the kind of propaganda you get fed in schools?
I am happy we've been able to discuss this like adults, here on NANOG. After all, this is about human networking.
I do not hate myself or any other Chinese people.
I do hate the lack of respect for human rights shown by the mainland Chinese government, and the slave labor prisons otherwise known as "cheap labor". And the lack of self-respect that allows others to turn a blind eye to this for their own profit.
-- Joe Yao ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
Bob Arthurs wrote:
I should add that my original statement pertains to (obviously) the Chinese *government* alone! I am concerned about the repression that the Chinese people experience, and the basic freedoms that they lack.
As far as 'China hate' is concerned- this definately doesn't apply to me- many of my friends are from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. I
And I am sure none of us are actually China haters or gay bashers, many of my friends are gay, too!
lived for many years in the area, and speak pretty passable Mandarin myself (was pretty fluent, but it has deteriorated a bit, I'm afraid!). So, love the Chinese people, their culture, and history - resent the Chinese government's repression (though I personally believe the Hu Jin Tao *may* turn out to be a great improvement on leaders such as Jiang Zemin, Deng Xiaoping, and obviously Mao Zedong- I hear that Hu Jin Tao even met Hu Yaobang's widow, and plans a commemoration in the Great Hall of the People!!).
Still, China is by its own right a country with its own laws. You don't have to agree with them but that's how it is. B*ching about it here told me nothing of operational problems anyone faces except for over-zealous political opinions. Want to bring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict up too? Gadi.
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:38:17 EDT, Joseph S D Yao said:
I do hate the lack of respect for human rights shown by the mainland Chinese government, and the slave labor prisons otherwise known as "cheap labor". And the lack of self-respect that allows others to turn a blind eye to this for their own profit.
And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when "vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction? Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy, finds it difficult sometimes, because there *are* no clear answers. Yes, it's a little evil to provide a censored Google to the Chinese mainland. On the other hand, would it be more evil, or less evil, to *totally* withold all Google?
On Thursday 08 Sep 2005 3:09 am, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when "vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction?
Moralities aren't black and white, generating profits falls behind other legal and moral obligations that apply to everyone.
Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy
Any influence Google's "Don't be Evil" policy had vanished the day it was floated AFAICT. Where profits are put before morals that is called greed. Sure the stockmarkets allow people to put greedy people in charge of their money, but be aware what goes around, comes around. HG Wells referred to people investing in the stockmarket as a purely financial endevour for short term profits as "the irresponsibly wealthy" as far back as 1902. Plus ça change.
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 09:19:46AM +0100, Simon Waters wrote:
On Thursday 08 Sep 2005 3:09 am, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when "vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction?
Moralities aren't black and white, generating profits falls behind other legal and moral obligations that apply to everyone.
Except, they don't in the United States corporations have a legal obligation to put profits above all else. They are legally forbidden to put morality above profit. These laws are severyly in need of some adjustments.
Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy
Any influence Google's "Don't be Evil" policy had vanished the day it was floated AFAICT.
Where profits are put before morals that is called greed. Sure the
No, that is following the law.
stockmarkets allow people to put greedy people in charge of their money, but be aware what goes around, comes around.
HG Wells referred to people investing in the stockmarket as a purely financial endevour for short term profits as "the irresponsibly wealthy" as far back as 1902. Plus ça change.
Michael
On Sep 8, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Michael Greb wrote:
Except, they don't in the United States corporations have a legal obligation to put profits above all else. They are legally forbidden to put morality above profit. These laws are severyly in need of some adjustments.
You deeply misunderstand the law. And the topic of this mailing list. :) -- TTFN, patrick
On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 03:59:21PM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the correct response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to hell".
Apparently you aren't familiar with police techniques in China. When presented with *ANY* request from *that* government, you smile politely and don't give them a reason to shoot you on the spot. If you don't want to play their games, don't enter the court. If you're in the court, one learns to play politely. -- Joe Rhett senior geek meer.net
participants (12)
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Bob Arthurs -
Gadi Evron -
Joe Rhett -
Joseph S D Yao -
Michael Greb -
Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com -
Owen DeLong -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
Rich Kulawiec -
Sean Figgins -
Simon Waters -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu