Is it really the case that people with routers at exchange points actually consider a packet addressed to one of their own customers to be theft of service? So far, I note, we haven't heard any position expressed by any of the big folks, just by others outraged on their behalf.

No, the point is sending data through another IXP member without recieving the invitation, in the form of a route advertisment, is stealing. You are using resources that you do not have permission to use. Some of us are very sensitive about this, and once when we lost all connecivity to the outside of the UK (going back about 18 months now) we made sure we *phoned* a couple of LINX peers (thanks to those at PIPEX and JANET at the time) to ask if we could just add forwarder entried in our DNS servers towards them for some level of name service. JANET was also down - same tx atlanic cable, but PIPEX had connectivity. They said yes, and then we did. I treat unwelcome data at whatever level as theft of something that belongs to me/us etc. The really sad thing is that in that 18 months, I can't see the above being repeated again, since most ISPs are now run by faceless monsters and not the engineers (who made it all work). Death of the net predicted... pics at 11. Regards, -- Peter Galbavy peter@wonderland.org @ Home phone://44/973/499465 in Wonderland http://www.wonderland.org/~peter/ snail://UK/NW1_6LE/London/21_Harewood_Avenue/

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Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Nathan Stratton <nathan@netrail.net>

Yes, but can we agree that dumping data to someons router at a NAP without asking is steeling?

Is it really the case that people with routers at exchange points actually consider a packet addressed to one of their own customers to be theft of service?

Ur yes, this is theft. Take Alans scenario again: A = small provider B = Top tier provider (MCI / Sprint etc.) C = A's transit provider !=B Now magnify this on an international scale so you the costs involved are scaled to a point where they are obvious. Let's say B sells transit in London as well as in Washington. Both A and C have invested in international lines to the US ( DS3 = $8/yr ). A & B are at at the same IX in London. A's transit is going to cost lots and lots over in the UK. Dumping traffic on B means they don't have to pay C so much, and use B's international line.

And of course, to be in a position to "dump data" on a router at an exchange, one must have one's own router there peering with *somebody*, right?

You needn't peer with anyone ip route 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 w.x.y.z will do the trick nicely if you aren't carrying full routing. Alex Bligh Xara Networks