There was also some interesting work done on the geographic location of Internet resources done at Boston University: http://www.cs.bu.edu/techreports/pdf/2002-015-internet-geography.pdf Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom since the first run? ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows
last year we *measured* isp maps as part of a research project called> rocketfuel and found that the marketing maps can differ significantly from the real ones quite a bit because of lack-of-detail, outdated- ness, or optimistic-projections. a paper describing the methodology and the maps themselves can be found off: http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/rocketfuel/
and, aside from reversing the meaning of a comment you attribute to me, i heartily recommend this paper.
randy
Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom since the first run?
not yet. but we intend to get to it soon; a lot of people have asked the same question. -- ratul On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 sgorman1@gmu.edu wrote:
There was also some interesting work done on the geographic location of Internet resources done at Boston University:
http://www.cs.bu.edu/techreports/pdf/2002-015-internet-geography.pdf
Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom since the first run?
----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows
last year we *measured* isp maps as part of a research project called> rocketfuel and found that the marketing maps can differ significantly from the real ones quite a bit because of lack-of-detail, outdated- ness, or optimistic-projections. a paper describing the methodology and the maps themselves can be found off: http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/rocketfuel/
and, aside from reversing the meaning of a comment you attribute to me, i heartily recommend this paper.
randy
since we are on the subject of availability of good data, i'd like to ask the list what i have been contemplating for some time now. understanding of routing (especially inter-domain) in the research community is really primitive. this precludes us from having realistic routing models. we recently started working on understanding prevalent inter-domain routing policies. the ultimate goal is to improve the efficiency, robustness and expressiveness of routing protocols. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/ if you run a network that has choices to make (more than one BGP speaking neighbor), you can help us by donating your bgp config files. abstracted or anonymized versions are ok. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/donation.h... further down the road, we'll need your help to better understand our findings. if you are willing to answer our (possibly naive) questions, please respond off-list; i am compiling a list of folks whom i can pester for answers. thanks, -- ratul
Ratul,
understanding of routing (especially inter-domain) in the research community is really primitive. this precludes us from having realistic routing models. we recently started working on understanding prevalent inter-domain routing policies. the ultimate goal is to improve the efficiency, robustness and expressiveness of routing protocols. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/
It is not clear if you mean that tools (e.g. BGP) are primitive, languages to express policy in BGP are primitive, or application of what we have (BGP + whatever language you use) is primitive. Which is it (or which subset)? Thanks, Dave
It is not clear if you mean that tools (e.g. BGP) are primitive, languages to express policy in BGP are primitive, or application of what we have (BGP + whatever language you use) is primitive. Which is it (or which subset)?
i would argue all of them; they are so tied to each other that its hard for me to distinguish. bgp does not let you do everything you want, and at times lets you do things you don't want. moreover, to my knowledge, the way most people configure it is also primitive. but our immediate goal is more modest - trying to understand whats going on and what the impact of it is. the more challenging task of fixing things will come later, when we know the current world better. -- ratul On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, David Meyer wrote:
Ratul,
understanding of routing (especially inter-domain) in the research community is really primitive. this precludes us from having realistic routing models. we recently started working on understanding prevalent inter-domain routing policies. the ultimate goal is to improve the efficiency, robustness and expressiveness of routing protocols. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/
It is not clear if you mean that tools (e.g. BGP) are primitive, languages to express policy in BGP are primitive, or application of what we have (BGP + whatever language you use) is primitive. Which is it (or which subset)?
Thanks,
Dave
if you run a network that has choices to make (more than one BGP speaking neighbor), you can help us by donating your bgp config files. abstracted or anonymized versions are ok.
http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/donation.h tml I'm not sure if you want the bgp tables or the configuration itself. In any case http://www.renesys.com/ currently has a project to collect bgp views - you may wish to talk to them. There are also many public route-servers that can give you a good view of the routing tables. http://www.caida.org has done a lot of work on analysis of BGP Mark Radabaugh Amplex (419) 720-3635
not sure why a config will help you any more than RR info which is much easier to get and maintain.. ultimately if you want more detailed data you need a complete view from each border router your interested in.. On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Mark Radabaugh wrote:
if you run a network that has choices to make (more than one BGP speaking neighbor), you can help us by donating your bgp config files. abstracted or anonymized versions are ok.
http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/donation.h tml
I'm not sure if you want the bgp tables or the configuration itself. In any case http://www.renesys.com/ currently has a project to collect bgp views - you may wish to talk to them. There are also many public route-servers that can give you a good view of the routing tables.
http://www.caida.org has done a lot of work on analysis of BGP
Mark Radabaugh Amplex (419) 720-3635
not sure why a config will help you any more than RR info which is much easier to get and maintain.. ultimately if you want more detailed data you need a complete view from each border router your interested in..
Well if you have something like Opnet you can produce quite detailed network models...
On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:03:22 -0800 (PST) Ratul Mahajan <ratul@cs.washington.edu> wrote:
speaking neighbor), you can help us by donating your bgp config files. abstracted or anonymized versions are ok.
Of possible general interest to the list, I had begun work over a year ago in 'mapping' out peering arrangements at various exchanges using simple packet probing techniques (traceroutes mostly from behind various providers nets) and gathering available public data. If anyone wants to see the data or more info, let me know and I'll make it available. Its only mildly interesting, but would be a useful method in developing maps ala the Lumeta method. It takes a significant amount of time (very difficult to automate) and energy to do this work, so its not all that reliable, practical or timely in many cases. John
participants (7)
-
David Meyer -
John Kristoff -
Mark Radabaugh -
neil＠DOMINO.ORG -
Ratul Mahajan -
sgorman1＠gmu.edu -
Stephen J. Wilcox