Re: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems (fwd)
Warning: dangerously irrelevant and completely off-topic for the NANOG list.
I'd never have guessed that Vixie was a supporter of a police state.
You've got me all wrong. I support the police in my state (country).
I'll stop supporting democracy when they pry my vote out of my cold dead hands....
Right. When my kids and I line up for exercises at the local school most mornings, you'll find me, hat in one hand and the other over my heart, facing the flag, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, and meaning every word of it except maybe the part about God which I consider to be ambiguous. And when paying taxes I am particularly glad that the cost of my family's security comes at merely a cost measurable as a fraction of my income. YMMV of course. If you don't like the deal you're being offered you should find a better one. Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect. The FBI has a hellish job on their hands right now. Actually it's been a hellish job for a long time but it seems like only recently we're all aware of how hellish it is. I don't think that redefining what an ISP is in order to blunt the obvious intent of Omnivore (or whatever) is a useful exercise of democratic power.
Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect.
if i and others had followed your advice, african-americans would still ride in the back of the bus, we would still have atmospheric atomic testing, and we would probably still be losing american and viet namese lives in viet nam and those on the streets and campuses of the country who disagreed with a bunch of now-convicted felons. you can take your amerika love it or leave it stuff and put it where the sun don't shine. nothing is perfect. america, love it and fix those parts of it that need it. and that's what's great about this country. we can! randy
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:41:02 PDT, Randy Bush said:
Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect.
if i and others had followed your advice, african-americans would still ride in the back of the bus, we would still have atmospheric atomic testing, and we would probably still be losing american and viet namese lives in viet nam and those on the streets and campuses of the country who disagreed with a bunch of now-convicted felons.
So you're saying, for instance, that the *proper* thing to do if you disagree with the anti-circumvention rules that the DMCA added to 17 USC 1201 is to just go ahead and break them, or that the proper thing to do is to lobby to get the law fixed? I'd suggest that the right thing to do is to lobby your congresscreatures, unless you're a visiting Russian programmer who wants to be a test case.... Yes, sometimes breaking the law in order to force a test case so there's a judicial review of the constitutionality is required. But unless you're trying to be either a test case or a martyr, you're stuck with the law until it's changed. -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech
Yes, sometimes breaking the law in order to force a test case so there's a judicial review of the constitutionality is required. But unless you're trying to be either a test case or a martyr, you're stuck with the law until it's changed.
not entirely true. civil disobedience straddles the line (or goes over it and breaks the law) and is a very effective way to make a point. and is often required in order to bring awareness about with respect to the problem in the law. keep in mind that law enforcement can only arrest, process, and convict so many people for a minor crime before people start taking notice and asking themselves questions. there's a great tradition here of civil disobedience, and it's important that it remain so. it's a very populist way to get your point across, and does little to no harm. i'm not suggesting sending terabytes of data at congressional offices, or swamping them with forms to process, i'm just saying that being a good doobie and staying the course and standing straight at attention in line aren't your only options. and it's good that they shouldn't be. anonymous email servers, anonymous web browsing services, etc., etc. are all important to the healthy give and take between law enforcement's desire to track every last thing that you do and say and a citizen's right to run free code on their own data. if i write code, run it on my own data, and ship that data around to other people, i'm not breaking a law. so why should i be _forced_ to make it easier for the feds to, say, decrypt my data? (a good isp would have anonymous/encrypted email, browsing, etc., services available to their customers. if they all did, the feds wouldn't be able to get access to the data they want without disrupting service to customers. i'm pretty sure people wouldn't be too keen on that.) there's a nice tension that has always existed between groups like the FBI and groups like the ACLU. i'd hate to see that disappear into the misty void of idealized gung-ho zealotry that seems to be enveloping otherwise smart people these days. s.
* uurtamo@ofc-204.arttoday.com (steve uurtamo) [Fri 19 Oct 2001, 22:31 CEST]:
(a good isp would have anonymous/encrypted email, browsing, etc., services available to their customers. if they all did, the feds wouldn't be able to get access to the data they want without disrupting service to customers. i'm pretty sure people wouldn't be too keen on that.)
Not keen at all. In some countries in Europe it's already almost impossible for ISPs to provide Secure Shell to their customers, as they are required by law to be able to hand over all data in unencrypted form if possible. Given that the decryption is done at some point they'd have to backdoor their sshd's to log all session keys or even all sessions in plaintext in order to comply... Remember that the feds can bend reality (or, put less wildly, adapt new laws) to suit their needs. -- Niels.
If it bothers you all so much, then put together a petition, circulate it at NANOG, send the results to congress. ... petition the government for a redress of grievances. Repeat at IETF. Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:41:02 PDT, Randy Bush said:
Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect.
if i and others had followed your advice, african-americans would still ride in the back of the bus, we would still have atmospheric atomic testing, and we would probably still be losing american and viet namese lives in viet nam and those on the streets and campuses of the country who disagreed with a bunch of now-convicted felons.
So you're saying, for instance, that the *proper* thing to do if you disagree with the anti-circumvention rules that the DMCA added to 17 USC 1201 is to just go ahead and break them, or that the proper thing to do is to lobby to get the law fixed?
I'd suggest that the right thing to do is to lobby your congresscreatures, unless you're a visiting Russian programmer who wants to be a test case....
Yes, sometimes breaking the law in order to force a test case so there's a judicial review of the constitutionality is required. But unless you're trying to be either a test case or a martyr, you're stuck with the law until it's changed.
-- Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions jtk@adelphiacom.net "... the true value of the Internet is its connectedness ..." -- John W. Stewart III
I really think we have a very long way to go until we are living in a police state. The FBI has the right to set up many kinds of surveillance including wire tapping, tailing, reading out mail, listening to our phones, all of which can be used as evidence. Them having the ability to read my email as well isn't going to make me head for Montana and join the an extremist group. Keep this in perspective: Our government has all the tools it needs to create a very efficient police state and has had the ability to do so for some time. The fact remains that we don't have a police state yet and are not heading in that direction. In fact, when new surveillance techniques have conme out in the past there was always talk about what it would do to our freedoms. The supreme court has had many landmark decisions in the past limiting the use of these techniques in a way that most Americans can live happily with, and this one will be no different. I personally am very satisfied with the system we have: a system that is strong enough to provide good services and defense to most of it's people yet flexible enough to let an incredibly diverse group of people work and live together to create the most powerful nation on earth. I don't think Omnivore is going to send us on the slippery slope into opression. I will let the FBI set it up and rely on the mechanisms of Democracy limit it's use. Greg Pendergrass -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Paul Vixie Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 3:26 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: [NEWS] FBI To Require ISPs To Reconfigure E-mail Systems (fwd) Warning: dangerously irrelevant and completely off-topic for the NANOG list.
I'd never have guessed that Vixie was a supporter of a police state.
You've got me all wrong. I support the police in my state (country).
I'll stop supporting democracy when they pry my vote out of my cold dead hands....
Right. When my kids and I line up for exercises at the local school most mornings, you'll find me, hat in one hand and the other over my heart, facing the flag, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, and meaning every word of it except maybe the part about God which I consider to be ambiguous. And when paying taxes I am particularly glad that the cost of my family's security comes at merely a cost measurable as a fraction of my income. YMMV of course. If you don't like the deal you're being offered you should find a better one. Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect. The FBI has a hellish job on their hands right now. Actually it's been a hellish job for a long time but it seems like only recently we're all aware of how hellish it is. I don't think that redefining what an ISP is in order to blunt the obvious intent of Omnivore (or whatever) is a useful exercise of democratic power.
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I really think we have a very long way to go until we are living in a police state.
And I really think you're whistling in the dark. Now that we've told each other what we think, can we drop the now-off-topic thread (a request that is sure to make the thread continue even longer, but what can you do?). - --- "The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote" - Kosh -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> iQA/AwUBO9Cex0ksS4VV8BvHEQJtGgCfWZt5qY+C2FA7C4rD4ZTO7gaGUrUAniY6 eQu7cmiYEQOd7A5DRPu/idsr =MTgT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 19 Oct 2001, Paul Vixie wrote:
Somewhere along with the power to vote particular politicians in or out must come some respect for the laws those people create, even the ones we don't think are perfect.
If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence. -4th Circuit Court of Appeals, US v. Moylan, 1969 Even the courts say we shouldn't respect laws we feel are unjust. For more information see the Fully Informed Jury Association at http://www.fija.org Matt -- Matthew S. Cramer <mscramer@armstrong.com> Office: 717-396-5032 Lead Security Analyst Fax: 717-396-5590 Armstrong Information Technology Services Pager: 717-305-3915 Armstrong World Industries, Inc. Cell: 717-917-7099
participants (9)
-
Greg Pendergrass -
Joseph T. Klein -
Mike Batchelor -
mscramer＠armstrong.com -
Niels Bakker -
Paul Vixie -
Randy Bush -
steve uurtamo -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu