RE: GSR, 7600, Juniper M?, oh my!
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: I already have a very nice empty M160 chassis for a chair at the colo,
I don't like it for a chair, too high (29"); A 7500 is a lot better for that use. It's really nice as a heater too, particularly a dual AC loaded with legacy blades. Other possible uses for a 7500 include a temperature sensor (http://arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us/mrtg/router-temp.html). My views on the original question: Cisco vs. Juniper: Whatever some people might say, everyone that uses both will tell you that the real picture is not Cisco=100% crap and Juniper=100% perfect :-) Besides, if you're a Cisco shop it's hard to find sound arguments to have only one or two Junipers (common business sense: twice the training, each one rejecting responsibility on the other, more difficult to find JunOs experts than IOS experts, etc...). 7600 vs. GSR: These are not the same boxes. There is stuff that the 7600 won't do, but there's also stuff that the GSR won't do in terms of aggregating a bunch of disparate links together. Michel.
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 08:09:36PM -0800, Michel Py wrote:
Cisco vs. Juniper: Whatever some people might say, everyone that uses both will tell you that the real picture is not Cisco=100% crap and Juniper=100% perfect :-) Besides, if you're a Cisco shop it's hard to find sound arguments to have only one or two Junipers (common business sense: twice the training, each one rejecting responsibility on the other, more difficult to find JunOs experts than IOS experts, etc...).
Never under any condition let anyone tell you that Juniper is perfect... But, as everyone that uses both will tell you, it is "better" (at most things). -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
Never under any condition let anyone tell you that Juniper is perfect... But, as everyone that uses both will tell you, it is "better" (at most things).
They tend to be (in our experience) a "set it and forget it" thing, while you can spend considerable time tweaking your Cisco; but admittedly ours is just an M5 edge (two gig-Es into an OC48). The rest of our gear is Cisco, and yes, we draw straws to see who has to mess with the Juniper when it has to be messed with. And speaking ancient history, we retired a 7505/RSP1 to the testbed a few years ago. It had two 6E cards (original core) and later a 2FE to play router-on-a-stick to a 5500/NFFC-II. We're now using 6500s (core) and 4500s/3550s (distribution). The old RSP1 looks pretty silly now :-) Jeff
Never under any condition let anyone tell you that Juniper is perfect... But, as everyone that uses both will tell you, it is "better" (at most things).
They tend to be (in our experience) a "set it and forget it" thing, while you can spend considerable time tweaking your Cisco; but admittedly ours is just an M5 edge (two gig-Es into an OC48). The rest of our gear is Cisco, and yes, we draw straws to see who has to mess with the Juniper when it has to be messed with.
If you can set aside time to study JUNOS a bit perhaps the straw draws won't be necessary! Although you are correct about the "set and forget" nature of JUNOS vs other platforms, especially when the larger DDOS's hit... The 1980's origin of IOS becomes clear when you look at more modern systems like JUNOS, especially if you've had structured and/or object oriented programming. Many interesting network solutions that have to be dismissed outright because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS. If you have the time to give them a look, the non-IOS systems have ALOT to offer in terms of expressing new/innovative ways to solve networking design/arch problems. Its too bad Juniper never released the old "Olive" JUNOS's for general download; they worked on stock x86 hardware with Intel and 3com(?) ethernet interfaces. They were GREAT for learning JUNOS on. Maybe Juniper will rethink that decision for marketing gains of exposing more people to JUNOS? -Rob
Many interesting network solutions that have to be dismissed outright because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS.
Example, please. (Agree with Jiniper OS for x86 - many people avoid Juniper because do not know it).
"used to be..." One could lay hands on a magic Cd that turned an ordinary PC with (Commonly available but the Brand Escapes me) Nics into a Juniper Olive that ran the full JunOS. It has disappeared, much to the disappointment of those of us that would love to use one to study for a cert/resume fodder. -Ejay
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Alexei Roudnev Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:51 AM To: rhealey@norstar.com; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: GSR, 7600, Juniper M?, oh my!
Many interesting network solutions that have to be
dismissed outright
because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS.
Example, please.
(Agree with Jiniper OS for x86 - many people avoid Juniper
because do not know it).
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Ejay Hire wrote:
"used to be..." One could lay hands on a magic Cd that turned an ordinary PC with (Commonly available but the Brand Escapes me) Nics into a Juniper Olive that ran the full JunOS. It has disappeared, much to the disappointment of those of us that would love to use one to study for a cert/resume fodder.
If one were searching for ISO images of such a thing, what would perhaps be some keywords to type into one's P2P application? Charles
-Ejay
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Alexei Roudnev Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:51 AM To: rhealey@norstar.com; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: GSR, 7600, Juniper M?, oh my!
Many interesting network solutions that have to be
dismissed outright
because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS.
Example, please.
(Agree with Jiniper OS for x86 - many people avoid Juniper
because do not know it).
Ejay, Those would be Intel NICs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Ejay Hire Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:17 AM To: 'Alexei Roudnev'; rhealey@norstar.com; 'Jeff Kell' Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: GSR, 7600, Juniper M?, oh my! "used to be..." One could lay hands on a magic Cd that turned an ordinary PC with (Commonly available but the Brand Escapes me) Nics into a Juniper Olive that ran the full JunOS. It has disappeared, much to the disappointment of those of us that would love to use one to study for a cert/resume fodder. -Ejay
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Alexei Roudnev Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:51 AM To: rhealey@norstar.com; Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: GSR, 7600, Juniper M?, oh my!
Many interesting network solutions that have to be
dismissed outright
because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS.
Example, please.
(Agree with Jiniper OS for x86 - many people avoid Juniper
because do not know it).
Many interesting network solutions that have to be dismissed outright because of IOS limitations, weaknesses or bugs can be easily expressed in newer systems, not just JUNOS.
Example, please.
Due to a barrage of e-mails I received on the subject I thought I'd send a generic reply to the list rather than try to cook up a plethera of examples on a one-to-one basis... First, if you haven't done so already, I suggest watching the Intro to JUNOS web training session on the juniper.net web site: http://www.juniper.net/training/elearning/junos_cli/index.html Next, the full docs for JUNOS are available without registration at http://www.juniper.net/techpubs For M series, click on the software link and pick the highest version listed their; 6.x would be the most current. Once you've looked at the training video and downloaded the docs you should be able to drill down to the areas that interst you most. The comprehensive index might be good to actually print out for handy reference. Some areas of interest might include: Group inheritance Using function/procedure invocation in policys Virtual router features; N logical routers in 1 box, more extensive than Redback contexts. Operational goodies: "Auto Chicken mode" - Basically the JUNOS config is a database and as such you commit changes. You can do an auto reverting commit that restores a known good config after N minutes if the candidate config isn't confirmed; i.e. "#$%#%#$, I just downed the infrastructure link on a remote router"... See "commit confirmed <x>" for details. This feature has been rumored to have saved many a chicken hide! You can leave insane levels of debug turned on without killing the routing or forwarding engines. For Juniper: ( You know who you are! ) Why not release an "Olive CD" with each new major JUNOS bump? It wouldn't hurt to have every schmoe in the universe that can boot a FreeBSD ISO also be competant in JUNOS! Place it as an iso download in the software docs area. For the squemish in the legal dept. you could remove the code that handles Juniper hardware from the distro and still have an excellent CLI engine and minimal routing platform simulator. I bet if you passed out a stack of "Olive CD's" at a NANOG there would be plenty of takers! -Rob
On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:14:18PM -0600, Rob Healey wrote:
For Juniper: ( You know who you are! )
Why not release an "Olive CD" with each new major JUNOS bump? It wouldn't hurt to have every schmoe in the universe that can boot a FreeBSD ISO also be competant in JUNOS! Place it as an iso download in the software docs area.
For the squemish in the legal dept. you could remove the code that handles Juniper hardware from the distro and still have an excellent CLI engine and minimal routing platform simulator.
I bet if you passed out a stack of "Olive CD's" at a NANOG there would be plenty of takers!
I still think there is a market for low-end 100Mbps-only "PC routers" for which they could easily sell thousands of copies of JunOS without the jpfe package at $1000 a pop. Considering they actually managed to add hardware-less firewalling in 5.x, I'm still not entirely convinced that they aren't thinking the same thing. But alas, it's probably too innovative a concept, and might cut into the "stupid with too much money" M5 buying market a tiny bit. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
participants (8)
-
Alexei Roudnev -
Charles Sprickman -
Ejay Hire -
Jeff Kell -
Michel Py -
Richard A Steenbergen -
Rob Healey -
Wojtek Zlobicki