Hi Gang, This question isn't strictly operational, but I'm needing a little coaching. I am wanting to offer a broadband over T1 service and have the infrastructure in place for aggregation of many of these over channelized DS3. My desire is to simplify administration and require PPP / chap authentication, and allow ppp and ppp multilink with the minimum configuration on my side necessary, I'm thinking there could be a 'one size fits all' setup on my side. I'd love to connect with anyone providing a similar service in a cisco environment to compare notes and bounce ideas off of. Thanks. Mike-
On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 00:07:45 -0400, Mike <mike-nanog@tiedyenetworks.com> wrote:
I am wanting to offer a broadband over T1 service and have the ...
s/broadband/internet/ A T1 is miles away from "broadband" these days. Having done this with Cisco gear (*years* ago), you want to avoid MLPPP whenever possible. We did CEF per-packet when the CPE end was also Cisco; it worked perfectly with none of the restrictions or bugs. --Ricky
-----Original Message----- From: Ricky Beam [mailto:jfbeam@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 2:45 PM To: NANOG list; Mike Subject: Re: Service provider T1/PPP question On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 00:07:45 -0400, Mike <mike-nanog@tiedyenetworks.com> wrote:
I am wanting to offer a broadband over T1 service and have the ...
s/broadband/internet/
A T1 is miles away from "broadband" these days.
Having done this with Cisco gear (*years* ago), you want to avoid MLPPP whenever possible. We did CEF per-packet when the CPE end was also Cisco; it worked perfectly with none of the restrictions or bugs.
--Ricky
I think this post seems like a flashback. I would not consider a T-1 to really be broadband anymore and it is pretty much limited to a business environment the way tariffs work. As far as MLPPP, it seems to be pretty stable now where you need multiple bonded T-1s. We have a few sites running MLPPP with Sprint on Juniper and Cisco gear and have not had an issue with it. It is definitely not my preference for business connectivity anymore. We tend to look for Ethernet service which is way cheaper per mb than T-1 and requires less expensive terminal equipment in most cases. T-1s are the business solution where you need dedicated MPLS connectivity and fiber transport is not available. DSL or Internet VPN are OK but somewhat less stable for business class private network solutions. If it is internet connectivity they want you will get beaten up by the cable companies that can outrun and outprice you across the board. You will also have a heck of a time competing with incumbent and competitive telecoms in T-1s that have central offices or collocations in central offices. The economics just don't work if you don't have direct access to the cable plant. Maybe up until the telecom act but not now. How do you intend to get those T-1s back to you or are you a CLEC? Steven Naslund
On 06/28/2013 12:56 PM, Naslund, Steve wrote:
I think this post seems like a flashback. I would not consider a T-1 to really be broadband anymore and it is pretty much limited to a business environment the way tariffs work. As far as MLPPP, it seems to be pretty stable now where you need multiple bonded T-1s. We have a few sites running MLPPP with Sprint on Juniper and Cisco gear and have not had an issue with it. It is definitely not my preference for business connectivity anymore. We tend to look for Ethernet service which is way cheaper per mb than T-1 and requires less expensive terminal equipment in most cases. T-1s are the business solution where you need dedicated MPLS connectivity and fiber transport is not available. DSL or Internet VPN are OK but somewhat less stable for business class private network solutions. If it is internet connectivity they want you will get beaten up by the cable companies that can outrun and outprice you across the board. You will also have a heck of a time competing with incumbent and competitive telecoms in T-1s that have central offices or collocations in central offices. The economics just don't work if you don't have direct access to the cable plant. Maybe up until the telecom act but not now. How do you intend to get those T-1s back to you or are you a CLEC?
I am a clec with colocated facilities, and my targets are rural unserved areas where none of the factors above are considerations. I just want to connect with anyone who's done this and has a qualified technical opinion on optimal deployment strategies; the business considerations are already done. Thanks tho. Mike
-----Original Message----- From: Mike [mailto:mike-nanog@tiedyenetworks.com] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 8:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Service provider T1/PPP question On 06/28/2013 12:56 PM, Naslund, Steve wrote:
I think this post seems like a flashback. I would not consider a T-1 to really be broadband anymore and it is pretty much limited to a business environment the way tariffs work. As far as MLPPP, it seems to be pretty stable now where you need multiple bonded T-1s. We have a few sites running MLPPP with Sprint on Juniper and Cisco gear and have not had an issue with it. It is definitely not my preference for business connectivity anymore. We tend to look for Ethernet service which is way cheaper per mb than T-1 and requires less expensive terminal equipment in most cases. T-1s are the business solution where you need dedicated MPLS connectivity and fiber transport is not available. DSL or Internet VPN are OK but somewhat less stable for business class private network solutions. If it is internet connectivity they want you will get beaten up by the cable companies that can outrun and outprice you across the board. You will also have a heck of a time competing with incumbent and competitive telecoms in T-1s that have central offices or collocations in central offices. The economics just don't work if you don't have direct access to the cable plant. Maybe up until the telecom act but not now. How do you intend to get those T-1s back to you or are you a CLEC?
I am a clec with colocated facilities, and my targets are rural unserved areas where none of the factors above are considerations. I just want to connect with anyone who's done this and has a qualified technical opinion on optimal deployment strategies; the business considerations are already done. ======================================================================================== Most "T-1" service these days seems to be delivered over HDSL. You may also want to consider EoC. XO uses Adtran CPEs for their EoC service, anything from 1.5Mbps to 20Mbps service over 1 or more copper pairs with good distances between repeaters.
The problem being a CLEC is getting access to repeater housings. Usually limits you to a few kft. At least you can get up to 15mbps/pair now. On Jun 28, 2013 6:23 PM, "Eric Wieling" <EWieling@nyigc.com> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Mike [mailto:mike-nanog@tiedyenetworks.com] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 8:26 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Service provider T1/PPP question
On 06/28/2013 12:56 PM, Naslund, Steve wrote:
I think this post seems like a flashback. I would not consider a T-1 to
really be broadband anymore and it is pretty much limited to a business environment the way tariffs work. As far as MLPPP, it seems to be pretty stable now where you need multiple bonded T-1s. We have a few sites running MLPPP with Sprint on Juniper and Cisco gear and have not had an issue with it. It is definitely not my preference for business connectivity anymore. We tend to look for Ethernet service which is way cheaper per mb than T-1 and requires less expensive terminal equipment in most cases. T-1s are the business solution where you need dedicated MPLS connectivity and fiber transport is not available. DSL or Internet VPN are OK but somewhat less stable for business class private network solutions. If it is internet connectivity they want you will get beaten up by the cable companies that can outrun and outprice you across the board. You will also have a heck of a time competing with incumbent and competitive telecoms in T-1s that have central offices or collocations in central offices. The economics just don't work if you don't have direct access to the cable plant. Maybe up until the telecom act but not now. How do you intend to get those T-1s back to you or are you a CLEC?
I am a clec with colocated facilities, and my targets are rural unserved areas where none of the factors above are considerations. I just want to connect with anyone who's done this and has a qualified technical opinion on optimal deployment strategies; the business considerations are already done.
========================================================================================
Most "T-1" service these days seems to be delivered over HDSL. You may also want to consider EoC. XO uses Adtran CPEs for their EoC service, anything from 1.5Mbps to 20Mbps service over 1 or more copper pairs with good distances between repeaters.
On 06/28/2013 06:21 PM, Eric Wieling wrote:
I am a clec with colocated facilities, and my targets are rural unserved areas where none of the factors above are considerations. I just want to connect with anyone who's done this and has a qualified technical opinion on optimal deployment strategies; the business considerations are already done. ======================================================================================== Most "T-1" service these days seems to be delivered over HDSL. You may also want to consider EoC. XO uses Adtran CPEs for their EoC service, anything from 1.5Mbps to 20Mbps service over 1 or more copper pairs with good distances between repeaters.
Im already doing the above. Just need T1 for reach since EoC is only good on home runs from the CO out to some distance whereas T1 can get me into the hills beyond. Mike-
On Jun 28, 2013, at 7:26 PM, Mike <mike-nanog@tiedyenetworks.com> wrote:
I am a clec with colocated facilities, and my targets are rural unserved areas where none of the factors above are considerations. I just want to connect with anyone who's done this and has a qualified technical opinion on optimal deployment strategies; the business considerations are already done.
I find this fascinating, but here's the "scoop". When T1's were the bee's knees (why is that a saying, anyway?) they were sold to what today we would call a "business" customer. The concept of residential users as we know them know didn't really exist during T1's heyday. Also during this time period MLPPP for "high speed" (yes, T1's qualified" wasn't really a thing, rather external multiplexers and HSSI (remember those fun cables?) into a DS3 interface were a thing. Remember providers that did Frame Relay over NxT1 just so they could mux the multiple customers on to DS-3/OC-3 into routers? Fun times...not. Anyway, the customer would have a router, like a real router, well, a 25xx anyway, and know how to configure it. That doesn't seem to be the world you're describing though, which is why I think you're getting crickets on the mailing list. Here's my $0.02, this is going to work best if you go somewhat old school in the config. HDLC or PPP over a single T1 to any equipment that supports either should more or less work just fine. Static assignment will work just fine, PPP learned assignments should work more or less just fine. Any of the things that can channelize DS-3/OC-3/OC-12/OC-48 down to T1 should work just dandy, it's all a matter of how many you have and your particular economics. Bonded T1's is where it gets interesting. MLPPP should be possible with modern hardware, but honestly it got a workout on devices that did things like ISDN, not T1's. Still, if you choose carefully I don't see any reason why MLPPP shouldn't be reliable and work just fine in today's world. If you're willing to do without modern features, you should be able to pick up a ton of gear that does all this for dirt cheap. A 7513 with channelized DS-3 cards is still quite spiffy for terminating static routed T1's for instance, and people may even pay you take them at this point. :) The CPE will be more interesting, there are several vendors that still make CPE with T1 interfaces, but that's much more rare. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 6/28/2013 10:56 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
If you're willing to do without modern features, you should be able to pick up a ton of gear that does all this for dirt cheap. A 7513 with channelized DS-3 cards is still quite spiffy for terminating static routed T1's for instance, and people may even pay you take them at this point. :) The CPE will be more interesting, there are several vendors that still make CPE with T1 interfaces, but that's much more rare.
As someone else already mentioned, back in the 720x-VXR /3640 days of T1 terminations, we scaled up to 5 T1s before going to [fractional] DS3, and the old "cef per-packet" load balancing was wonderful provided you were talking to another Cisco endpoint (which for us, at the time, was Qwest, and yes it was). We were so sold on it that we even tried that on campus, but soon learned that Catalysts had no idea what "cef per-packet" meant :( So enter EIGRP / utilization load sharing... Jeff -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlHOT+gACgkQiwXJq373XhaozQCgiVGXOMIDccyONDRUQAk/M5GW 2OQAn2EfzwkvrgIl4eUsjIAGyXKq7z6s =u7Mw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (7)
-
Eric Wieling -
Jeff Kell -
Leo Bicknell -
Mike -
Naslund, Steve -
Ricky Beam -
Tim Jackson