Re: Impacts of Encryption Everywhere (any solution?)
In article <CAEmG1=oiVJ4qj_D9hA3WS=g64zoo4pYkZ-zDZ0nEEQcTjE5A=A@mail.gmail.com>, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
Your 200mbit/sec link that costs you $300 in hardware is going to cost you $4960/month to actually get IP traffic across, in Nairobi. Yes, that's about $60,000/year.
Nonetheless, Safaricom sells entirely usable data plans. A one day 1GB bundle on a prepaid SIM costs about $1, a monthly 1GB costs about $5. They have 4G, it works, I've used it. What do they know that Telegeography (who made that slide) doesn't? -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
I am sure these third world nations have more important things to spend their money on rather than data plans and data devices. Things like food and medicine come to mind... In none of the Starving Children in Africa commercials have I ever seen anyone with a smart phone... It appears Nairobi proper has decent cell coverage, but the outskirt villages and such don't appear all that well covered. I am guessing these are the poorer areas. To check out the 3 cellular providers coverage maps in Kenya, check out the maps located here: https://opensignal.com/networks -Mike On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:24 PM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In article <CAEmG1=oiVJ4qj_D9hA3WS=g64zoo4pYkZ-zDZ0nEEQcTjE5A=A@mail. gmail.com>, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
Your 200mbit/sec link that costs you $300 in hardware is going to cost you $4960/month to actually get IP traffic across, in Nairobi. Yes, that's about $60,000/year.
Nonetheless, Safaricom sells entirely usable data plans. A one day 1GB bundle on a prepaid SIM costs about $1, a monthly 1GB costs about $5. They have 4G, it works, I've used it.
What do they know that Telegeography (who made that slide) doesn't?
-- Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
-- Mike Lyon mike.lyon@gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
I am sure these third world nations have more important things to spend their money on rather than data plans and data devices. Things like food and medicine come to mind...
My goodness, aren't we condescending. Since we're talking about Kenya here, a few milliseconds of research reminds us that it's a significant agricultural exporter. Agricultural development there is generally about better use of existing land. You might also want to learn about M-Pesa, the mobile phone payment system that everybody uses. Stores all have a sign with their M-Pesa number so you can pay them, and there are kiosks all over Nairobi that will exchange M-Pesa credit and cash. The 1GB data bundles I mentioned are large ones. You can get 7MB for a day or 5MB for a week for 5c, which is plenty to check your messages or look up farm prices. People in Africa may be poorer than we are, but they are just as smart as we are, and they are just as able and interested in technology when it is useful to them. R's, John
On 29/May/18 16:16, John R. Levine wrote:
My goodness, aren't we condescending. Since we're talking about Kenya here, a few milliseconds of research reminds us that it's a significant agricultural exporter. Agricultural development there is generally about better use of existing land.
You might also want to learn about M-Pesa, the mobile phone payment system that everybody uses. Stores all have a sign with their M-Pesa number so you can pay them, and there are kiosks all over Nairobi that will exchange M-Pesa credit and cash. The 1GB data bundles I mentioned are large ones. You can get 7MB for a day or 5MB for a week for 5c, which is plenty to check your messages or look up farm prices.
People in Africa may be poorer than we are, but they are just as smart as we are, and they are just as able and interested in technology when it is useful to them.
It's pretty difficult to articulate this sort of thing unless someone has actually traveled to and experienced a destination, and its peoples, on their own. Having had the opportunity to travel the world over the past 2 or more decades, I've been eagerly disillusioned by what I thought a lot of countries were either capable of, or not capable of. What I learned... you can't armchair reality. The Internet in Indonesia is the very same Internet in Eritrea, as it is in Canada. We can't quite split that... Mark.
The Internet in Indonesia is the very same Internet in Eritrea, as it is in Canada. We can't quite split that…
I admit that I haven’t been to Eritrea or Indonesia, but using Ethiopia and Malaysia as stand-ins (which I have been to), I can say that while they are the same internet, the level of development, the payment systems which are usable via said internet, and other aspects of the daily use and capabilities which can be utilized on the internet in those countries does vary greatly. For example, Apple Pay is somewhat ubiquitous in Canada. It’s virtually unheard of in Ethiopia. My travels to Malaysia were not recent enough for me to comment accurately on the current state of things. M-Pesa is widely accepted in Kenya, but not at all in the US or Canada. PayPal is popular in the US, but not so much in most of the rest of the world. YMMV. IPv6 is readily available on almost every mobile phone in the US. Less so in Kenya or Tanzania, Eritrea, Canada, or Indonesia. While all connected networks are part of the same big I Internet, not all networks are created or maintained equal and not all services on those networks are ubiquitously available to all users of the big I Internet. Owen
Ethiopia is significantly different and unique, in its own unusual way, because of the government monopoly telecom. Other people can correct me if I'm wrong, but unless the situation has changed in the past two years, all small to medium sized ISPs in Ethiopia are mandated by law to be downstream of the government run telecom ASN. Also the government owned national telecom has a monopoly on all international fiber connections to neighboring countries (at OSI layer 1), and for things like STM/SDH or 1/10/ Gbps Ethernet L2 transport services to any location outside of Ethiopia. The Ethiopian Internet is also subject to significant censorship and attempted blockage of VPN and VoIP services. https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopia+internet+censorship&oq=ethiopia+internet+censorship&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.2857j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
The Internet in Indonesia is the very same Internet in Eritrea, as it is in Canada. We can't quite split that…
I admit that I haven’t been to Eritrea or Indonesia, but using Ethiopia and Malaysia as stand-ins (which I have been to), I can say that while they are the same internet, the level of development, the payment systems which are usable via said internet, and other aspects of the daily use and capabilities which can be utilized on the internet in those countries does vary greatly.
For example, Apple Pay is somewhat ubiquitous in Canada. It’s virtually unheard of in Ethiopia. My travels to Malaysia were not recent enough for me to comment accurately on the current state of things.
M-Pesa is widely accepted in Kenya, but not at all in the US or Canada.
PayPal is popular in the US, but not so much in most of the rest of the world.
YMMV.
IPv6 is readily available on almost every mobile phone in the US. Less so in Kenya or Tanzania, Eritrea, Canada, or Indonesia.
While all connected networks are part of the same big I Internet, not all networks are created or maintained equal and not all services on those networks are ubiquitously available to all users of the big I Internet.
Owen
It was a convenient example with which I had experience near Eritrea. My statement would apply equally for say, Zambia or Morocco. Owen
On May 29, 2018, at 10:58 , Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
Ethiopia is significantly different and unique, in its own unusual way, because of the government monopoly telecom. Other people can correct me if I'm wrong, but unless the situation has changed in the past two years, all small to medium sized ISPs in Ethiopia are mandated by law to be downstream of the government run telecom ASN. Also the government owned national telecom has a monopoly on all international fiber connections to neighboring countries (at OSI layer 1), and for things like STM/SDH or 1/10/ Gbps Ethernet L2 transport services to any location outside of Ethiopia.
The Ethiopian Internet is also subject to significant censorship and attempted blockage of VPN and VoIP services.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopia+internet+censorship&oq=ethiopia+internet+censorship&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.2857j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 <https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopia+internet+censorship&oq=ethiopia+internet+censorship&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.2857j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
The Internet in Indonesia is the very same Internet in Eritrea, as it is in Canada. We can't quite split that…
I admit that I haven’t been to Eritrea or Indonesia, but using Ethiopia and Malaysia as stand-ins (which I have been to), I can say that while they are the same internet, the level of development, the payment systems which are usable via said internet, and other aspects of the daily use and capabilities which can be utilized on the internet in those countries does vary greatly.
For example, Apple Pay is somewhat ubiquitous in Canada. It’s virtually unheard of in Ethiopia. My travels to Malaysia were not recent enough for me to comment accurately on the current state of things.
M-Pesa is widely accepted in Kenya, but not at all in the US or Canada.
PayPal is popular in the US, but not so much in most of the rest of the world.
YMMV.
IPv6 is readily available on almost every mobile phone in the US. Less so in Kenya or Tanzania, Eritrea, Canada, or Indonesia.
While all connected networks are part of the same big I Internet, not all networks are created or maintained equal and not all services on those networks are ubiquitously available to all users of the big I Internet.
Owen
Morocco... Sure? Data points? mh Le 2018-05-29 20:00, Owen DeLong a écrit :
It was a convenient example with which I had experience near Eritrea.
My statement would apply equally for say, Zambia or Morocco.
Owen
On May 29, 2018, at 10:58 , Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
Ethiopia is significantly different and unique, in its own unusual way, because of the government monopoly telecom. Other people can correct me if I'm wrong, but unless the situation has changed in the past two years, all small to medium sized ISPs in Ethiopia are mandated by law to be downstream of the government run telecom ASN. Also the government owned national telecom has a monopoly on all international fiber connections to neighboring countries (at OSI layer 1), and for things like STM/SDH or 1/10/ Gbps Ethernet L2 transport services to any location outside of Ethiopia.
The Ethiopian Internet is also subject to significant censorship and attempted blockage of VPN and VoIP services.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopia+internet+censorship&oq=ethiopia+internet+censorship&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.2857j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 <https://www.google.com/search?q=ethiopia+internet+censorship&oq=ethiopia+internet+censorship&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.2857j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
The Internet in Indonesia is the very same Internet in Eritrea, as it is in Canada. We can't quite split that…
I admit that I haven’t been to Eritrea or Indonesia, but using Ethiopia and Malaysia as stand-ins (which I have been to), I can say that while they are the same internet, the level of development, the payment systems which are usable via said internet, and other aspects of the daily use and capabilities which can be utilized on the internet in those countries does vary greatly.
For example, Apple Pay is somewhat ubiquitous in Canada. It’s virtually unheard of in Ethiopia. My travels to Malaysia were not recent enough for me to comment accurately on the current state of things.
M-Pesa is widely accepted in Kenya, but not at all in the US or Canada.
PayPal is popular in the US, but not so much in most of the rest of the world.
YMMV.
IPv6 is readily available on almost every mobile phone in the US. Less so in Kenya or Tanzania, Eritrea, Canada, or Indonesia.
While all connected networks are part of the same big I Internet, not all networks are created or maintained equal and not all services on those networks are ubiquitously available to all users of the big I Internet.
Owen
On 29/May/18 19:58, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
Ethiopia is significantly different and unique, in its own unusual way, because of the government monopoly telecom. Other people can correct me if I'm wrong, but unless the situation has changed in the past two years, all small to medium sized ISPs in Ethiopia are mandated by law to be downstream of the government run telecom ASN. Also the government owned national telecom has a monopoly on all international fiber connections to neighboring countries (at OSI layer 1), and for things like STM/SDH or 1/10/ Gbps Ethernet L2 transport services to any location outside of Ethiopia.
The Ethiopian Internet is also subject to significant censorship and attempted blockage of VPN and VoIP services.
Doesn't at all sound that different from China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Myanmar... and in the case of international connectivity openness, Swaziland... Mark.
On 29/May/18 19:21, Owen DeLong wrote:
I admit that I haven’t been to Eritrea or Indonesia, but using Ethiopia and Malaysia as stand-ins (which I have been to), I can say that while they are the same internet, the level of development, the payment systems which are usable via said internet, and other aspects of the daily use and capabilities which can be utilized on the internet in those countries does vary greatly.
For example, Apple Pay is somewhat ubiquitous in Canada. It’s virtually unheard of in Ethiopia. My travels to Malaysia were not recent enough for me to comment accurately on the current state of things.
M-Pesa is widely accepted in Kenya, but not at all in the US or Canada.
PayPal is popular in the US, but not so much in most of the rest of the world.
YMMV.
IPv6 is readily available on almost every mobile phone in the US. Less so in Kenya or Tanzania, Eritrea, Canada, or Indonesia.
While all connected networks are part of the same big I Internet, not all networks are created or maintained equal and not all services on those networks are ubiquitously available to all users of the big I Internet.
My point is the protocol is the same regardless of where in the world you are; and the global nature of the Internet levels the playing field. Who extracts the most out of it is a completely separate discussion. What I am saying is there are different ways many countries do things. Deciding on how computer communicate isn't one of them. Mark.
Everyone in Haiti had a cell phone. Everyone. Even the poorest of the poor. They skipped the enormous expense of copper infrastructure. The world is very different in person. And these pockets of extreme isolation sound like a prime opportunity for a WISP or other disruption. -Ben On May 29, 2018, at 7:16 AM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
I am sure these third world nations have more important things to spend their money on rather than data plans and data devices. Things like food and medicine come to mind...
My goodness, aren't we condescending. Since we're talking about Kenya here, a few milliseconds of research reminds us that it's a significant agricultural exporter. Agricultural development there is generally about better use of existing land.
You might also want to learn about M-Pesa, the mobile phone payment system that everybody uses. Stores all have a sign with their M-Pesa number so you can pay them, and there are kiosks all over Nairobi that will exchange M-Pesa credit and cash. The 1GB data bundles I mentioned are large ones. You can get 7MB for a day or 5MB for a week for 5c, which is plenty to check your messages or look up farm prices.
People in Africa may be poorer than we are, but they are just as smart as we are, and they are just as able and interested in technology when it is useful to them.
R's, John
On May 29, 2018, at 12:49 , Ben Cannon <ben@6by7.net> wrote:
Everyone in Haiti had a cell phone. Everyone. Even the poorest of the poor. They skipped the enormous expense of copper infrastructure.
The world is very different in person.
And these pockets of extreme isolation sound like a prime opportunity for a WISP or other disruption.
In some cases, this is a viable solution. In others, not so much. There are places, for example, where one has to be concerned that your infrastructure will be creatively “recycled” by the locals when you aren’t looking. Also, deploying a WISP still requires the ability to bring Power to all and Wired Connectivity to some of your deployments. As I mentioned earlier, Haiti is a relatively easy Wireless deployment topography. Try doing the same thing in the Nevada desert, where the iron rich base minerals combined with the alkali top soil creates a kind of RF sink-hole that causes walkie-talkies that go 3-5 miles anywhere else to fail in as little as 1/4 mile and that’s in the flat areas. Add in the mountains and you’ve got a real interesting deployment where you might need 4 or 5 base stations just to reach 1-2 customers. There are solutions that can work just about everywhere, but there’s no one solution that works everywhere. Owen
-Ben
On May 29, 2018, at 7:16 AM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
I am sure these third world nations have more important things to spend their money on rather than data plans and data devices. Things like food and medicine come to mind...
My goodness, aren't we condescending. Since we're talking about Kenya here, a few milliseconds of research reminds us that it's a significant agricultural exporter. Agricultural development there is generally about better use of existing land.
You might also want to learn about M-Pesa, the mobile phone payment system that everybody uses. Stores all have a sign with their M-Pesa number so you can pay them, and there are kiosks all over Nairobi that will exchange M-Pesa credit and cash. The 1GB data bundles I mentioned are large ones. You can get 7MB for a day or 5MB for a week for 5c, which is plenty to check your messages or look up farm prices.
People in Africa may be poorer than we are, but they are just as smart as we are, and they are just as able and interested in technology when it is useful to them.
R's, John
"And these pockets of extreme isolation sound like a prime opportunity for a WISP or other disruption. " Which is what the OP of the thread I was looking at was doing, starting a WISP. They could get a 100 - 200 megabit/s per AP access network, but their link to the outside world is currently limited to one meg. For some reason mountain to mountain links weren't a viable option. I don't know the reason why. I was looking for ways of him getting the most bang for the buck out of the connection. I've got a couple ideas (Steam Cache, Squid in "bump in the middle" configuration, and a squid - squid tunnel with the low speed link in the middle). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Cannon" <ben@6by7.net> To: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 2:49:14 PM Subject: Re: Impacts of Encryption Everywhere (any solution?) Everyone in Haiti had a cell phone. Everyone. Even the poorest of the poor. They skipped the enormous expense of copper infrastructure. The world is very different in person. And these pockets of extreme isolation sound like a prime opportunity for a WISP or other disruption. -Ben On May 29, 2018, at 7:16 AM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
I am sure these third world nations have more important things to spend their money on rather than data plans and data devices. Things like food and medicine come to mind...
My goodness, aren't we condescending. Since we're talking about Kenya here, a few milliseconds of research reminds us that it's a significant agricultural exporter. Agricultural development there is generally about better use of existing land.
You might also want to learn about M-Pesa, the mobile phone payment system that everybody uses. Stores all have a sign with their M-Pesa number so you can pay them, and there are kiosks all over Nairobi that will exchange M-Pesa credit and cash. The 1GB data bundles I mentioned are large ones. You can get 7MB for a day or 5MB for a week for 5c, which is plenty to check your messages or look up farm prices.
People in Africa may be poorer than we are, but they are just as smart as we are, and they are just as able and interested in technology when it is useful to them.
R's, John
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:24 PM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
In article <CAEmG1=oiVJ4qj_D9hA3WS=g64zoo4pYkZ-zDZ0nEEQcTjE5A=A@mail. gmail.com>, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
Your 200mbit/sec link that costs you $300 in hardware is going to cost you $4960/month to actually get IP traffic across, in Nairobi. Yes, that's about $60,000/year.
Nonetheless, Safaricom sells entirely usable data plans. A one day 1GB bundle on a prepaid SIM costs about $1, a monthly 1GB costs about $5. They have 4G, it works, I've used it.
What do they know that Telegeography (who made that slide) doesn't?
Math. ^_^; 1GB of volume over the course of a month is 3kb/sec sustained throughput over the month. (1000000000*8/(86400*30)) $5 per 3kbit/sec means that 155mbit link would cost...$251,100/month. (155000000/((1000000000*8)/(86400*30))*5) We call that "Time Domain Multiplexing-based profits". Comparing volumetric pricing with rate-based pricing is one of the best ways of tucking in *lots* of room for profit. :) Matt
On 29/May/18 04:55, Matthew Petach wrote:
Math. ^_^;
1GB of volume over the course of a month is 3kb/sec sustained throughput over the month. (1000000000*8/(86400*30))
$5 per 3kbit/sec means that 155mbit link would cost...$251,100/month. (155000000/((1000000000*8)/(86400*30))*5)
We call that "Time Domain Multiplexing-based profits".
Comparing volumetric pricing with rate-based pricing is one of the best ways of tucking in *lots* of room for profit. :)
Actual bandwidth isn't bad at all - so that 1GB can go rapidly. Practically, networks and customers all find ways to get that 1GB (or 50MB) to take them as far as it impossibly can. Mark.
On 29/May/18 04:24, John R. Levine wrote:
Nonetheless, Safaricom sells entirely usable data plans. A one day 1GB bundle on a prepaid SIM costs about $1, a monthly 1GB costs about $5. They have 4G, it works, I've used it.
What do they know that Telegeography (who made that slide) doesn't?
4G coverage is not country-wide. A lot of folk still earn less than US$1/day. Nairobi isn't Kenya... Mark.
participants (10)
-
Ben Cannon -
Eric Kuhnke -
John R. Levine -
Mark Tinka -
Matthew Petach -
Michael Hallgren -
Mike Hammett -
Mike Lyon -
Owen DeLong -
Randy Bush