If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
so negotiate with the recruiter. benifits of a recuriter are: * they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc. and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :) On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:33:52 -0700 "John Brown (CV)" <jmbrown@chagresventures.com> wrote:
and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :)
i'd also suggest using an independent recruiter, and check references. the big firms that do recruiting often take a cut that is all out of proportion to the amount of work they actually do. an independent will often be more reasonable. richard -- Richard Welty rwelty@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume. Recruiters are only good for initial screening and attracting applicants, and in this economic climate theis services are nearly worthless, too. As for presuming they actually read resumes... well, they may, but they never seem to be able to distinguish between reality and exaggregation or outright lies. In the end, they screen out all geeks and you end up with a bunch of polished liars. Better use networking and referrals, and Internet-based resources. --vadim On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, John Brown (CV) wrote:
so negotiate with the recruiter.
benifits of a recuriter are:
* they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do
this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc.
and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :)
On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
Vadim Antonov writes on 11/8/2003 7:49 PM:
Better use networking and referrals, and Internet-based resources.
Posting to nanog will already have got him a lot of quality resumes, I think :) -- srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9 manager, outblaze.com security and antispam operations
Vadim Antonov wrote:
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume.
And Statistics show, the less knowledgeable you are in this field, the more cock sure of yourself you are, and the opposite hsa been proven true, as well. (Time and time again in help desks around the world, every single day.. ;)
Recruiters ... (snip) In the end, they screen out all geeks and you end up with a bunch of polished liars.
Vadim, you are getting as jaded as Bill. :P (Albeit accurate!)
Better use networking and referrals, and Internet-based resources.
--vadim
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, John Brown (CV) wrote:
so negotiate with the recruiter.
benifits of a recuriter are:
* they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do
this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc.
and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :)
On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining with "CC", and/or "MS". this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs. two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools. i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. eric
Okay, I was kinda waiting a single alternative opinion of recruiters, but since I haven't seen one, I will offer one. True, most recruiters, like the middle part of any bell curve, tend to be...average. And as usual, with sweeping generalizations, you could be missing out on something. In fact, as I understand it, recruiting is one of the first steps of paying dues when walking up the HR ladder. There is certainly an echelon of well connected, knowledgable and trusted recruiters that place high quality candidates into the right jobs at the best companies. In fact, I know a few recruiters that used to be engineers. They tend to work with people that can demand a certain minimum salary, have years of industry experience and are currently employed. Recruiters are just as sick of misrepresented technical folks that don't have a clue wasting their time trying to tap jobs. Their creditabilty is on the line with every placement. Again, as with most things, there tends to be two ends to the spectrum. Best Regards, Andy Walden -- PGP Key Available at http://www.tigerteam.net/andy/pgp On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote:
recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining with "CC", and/or "MS".
this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs.
two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools.
i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't.
eric
by coincidence, trying to stay ahead of my three tropical cyclones (two of whom are autistic, the "why" in why i'm a stay-at-home parent), in a bundle of health/school/welfare papers to parse, my rejection from good old time warner cable of maine (hq'd about 15 minutes from my door) fell out and on to the floor. brenda buck, hr sup, wished me well in my job search, and cc'd christy tibbetts, dir. hr, as unfortunately, they did not have any available positions in my area of interest, and declined to retain my resume to boot. when you go to agencies -- in house (tw/maine) or external, you get their view of the world. i won't bore anyone with a clue'd user's view of tw/m, it is simply yet-another-marginally-functional-isp, with b/w as its only value prop, gratis muni-monopoly cable plant. is there a gold standard in hr outfits? we're not the sweet spot in the market, so their idea of "gold" is corporate-intra-net, ms-foo, cisco-bar, and maybe some crm people skills. i'd be happier with cwa organizing us and going the labor hall route. have fun. eric
Now, the problem of finding a good recruiter is substituted for the problem of finding a good engineer :) The trade-off is good only if you're planning to hire dozens of engineers, considering monetary costs of such arrangement. Even better, if you're creating a large org, get a headhunter on board, and give him stock options - otherwise he has wrong incentives (i.e. he's better off with job-hopping "upward mobility" type of guys (the more expensive, the better) when he works for himself, and you really want smart and trainable staff and don't give a damn about perfect resume - and he's going to be cost-conscious). --vadim On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Andy Walden wrote:
Again, as with most things, there tends to be two ends to the spectrum.
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's. Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt In particular: DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to jobs@telerama.com along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea. The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key. One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position. Doug
Doug, Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process. Neal Doug Luce wrote:
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding.
These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's.
Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt
In particular:
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application.
To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to jobs@telerama.com along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea.
The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key.
One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position.
Doug
-- mailto:neal@lists.rauhauser.net phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser "After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own" - Widespread Panic
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your public SSH key. Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't have it available to go through. Doug From: "imp mis" <impmis@hotmail.com> To: jobs@telerama.com Bcc: Subject: Unix/Internet Systems Administration Position so you want my public ssh key or you won't consider me for you're position?? FUCK YOU!!!!!!! how's that???? On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, neal rauhauser wrote:
Doug,
Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process.
Neal
Doug Luce wrote:
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding.
These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's.
Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt
In particular:
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application.
To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to jobs@telerama.com along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea.
The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key.
One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position.
Doug
-- mailto:neal@lists.rauhauser.net phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser "After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own" - Widespread Panic
Well, FORK YOU AND THE PACKET YOU WERE ENCAPSULATED IN! This is just priceless ... I am going to send the guy a note and find out where he is working these days :-) Doug Luce wrote:
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your public SSH key.
Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't have it available to go through.
Doug
From: "imp mis" <impmis@hotmail.com> To: jobs@telerama.com Bcc: Subject: Unix/Internet Systems Administration Position
so you want my public ssh key or you won't consider me for you're position??
FUCK YOU!!!!!!!
how's that????
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, neal rauhauser wrote:
Doug,
Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process.
Neal
Doug Luce wrote:
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding.
These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's.
Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt
In particular:
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application.
To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to jobs@telerama.com along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea.
The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key.
One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position.
Doug
-- mailto:neal@lists.rauhauser.net phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser "After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own" - Widespread Panic
-- mailto:neal@lists.rauhauser.net phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser "After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own" - Widespread Panic
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote: of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply
trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools.
My best hire, now one of my good friends, was someone who was on a teacher-training course but had to drop out due to a long term illness. She came to me recommended by my girlfriend-a-the-time as someone who would make a good office junior. She is now one of the bext web/perl/sql coders I know. A willingness, nay - a NEED, to learn and be open to new concepts is what forward moving technology sectors (like ours I hope) need. Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity.
i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't.
Aye. I have *never* used my CV/Resume in getting a job. I still have one, but it's very out of date. Peter
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fisher, Shawn" <SFisher@Bresnan.com> To: "Nanog List (E-mail)" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fisher, Shawn" <SFisher@Bresnan.com> To: "Nanog List (E-mail)" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
Where is the "nanog job board" to post open positions to?
To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs. It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year. There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was moving elsewhere, but it doesn't appear to have ever done so. -John
Where is the "nanog job board" to post open positions to?
To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs.
It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year.
There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was moving elsewhere, but it doesn't appear to have ever done so.
The list still exists. New subscriptions are approved regularly. We get about five new subscriptions a week. I'd considered moving the list off of yahoogroups after their changing-mail-pref scam, but I later held off. The list will still be moving, sometime in the next 30 days or so, but subscriptions will be preserved. I invite those interested or those recently subscribed to send a short introduction to the list regarding who you are, what you're looking for, and what skillsets. A resume is not desired or required. nanog-jobs has only had, IIRC, about five job postings, but it is an excellent way to get in touch with a good cross-section of candidates who tend to have more network engineering and architecture knowledge than the average joe. nanog-jobs is *not* affiliated with NANOG proper or Merit, although there have been some very informal BOFs in the past at NANOG events. Miami will be the next. My purpose in creating the list was the hope that a more informal recruitment structure would prevail, since prescreening was less necessary in the light of the fact that I tend to aggressively moderate subscriptions to the list and I tried very hard to target (in my initial actions in creating the list) people with routing protocol and switching experience primarily, while trying not to target those with MCSE/CCNA certifications alone. Best regards, Tim -- Tim Brown tim@tux.org
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fisher, Shawn" <SFisher@Bresnan.com> To: "Nanog List (E-mail)" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fisher, Shawn" <SFisher@Bresnan.com> To: "Nanog List (E-mail)" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fisher, Shawn" <SFisher@Bresnan.com> To: "Nanog List (E-mail)" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee.
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share?
TIA,
Shawn
participants (15)
-
Alexei Roudnev -
Andy Walden -
Doug Luce -
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine -
Fisher, Shawn -
John Brown (CV) -
John Ferriby -
neal rauhauser -
Peter Galbavy -
Petri Helenius -
Richard Irving -
Richard Welty -
Suresh Ramasubramanian -
Timothy Brown -
Vadim Antonov