Re: RBL quandry - opinions hereby solicited
Paul says his only requirement is that they stop when asked. Well, I haven't seen any evidence that they won't or don't. All I have heard is that they make you choose between their email and their service, or no email and no service. That they don't change their business when someone demands and still do business with that person is another matter. It might be arguable about whether they can or should give their list to someone else or who owns the list. But it not even questionable that they can use it themselves to promote their own services. Perhaps you are getting something from NSI that I'm not getting. I've gotten advertisements on topics like how to do DNS, etc. Things that NSI might be able to train people on. Things that registrants of domains might need training on. I haven't gotten anything from NSI that isn't part of NSI's own business, unless you count verisign stuff, which could possibly be outside, but it is still certainly related to their business, and the business of those who have domains registered with them. I actually haven't gotten any email from NSI about verisign--Its all on their we page, I think. I haven't gotten any spam from NSI about, oh, say, the latest porn site, or how to get rich quick using chain letters. I haven't heard that people who aren't customers of NSI are getting unsolicited email from NSI. But you are still missing the definition of spam: what is unsolicited email. It is not "unsolicited" when you have a previously existing relationship, especially a relationship that specifies that you agree to give NSI your email address, and you agree with NSI that they can send you email. Furthermore, you can make NSI stop sending you email simply by not doing business with them. You can register domains in other registries. NSI isn't going out and buying email lists, and spraying email. They are sending to their own customer list. This is using the RBL to bully NSI. Its not about spam. --Dean At 05:07 PM 11/21/1998 -0500, Rich Sena wrote:
Dean stop beeing a boob - it's spam - it's not hey glad your a customer hope all is well it's hey use us to register new domains - it's being generated to compete against other avenues of registration - lets call it what it is - if you like it great - give it a hug and kiss and give it a rest - the majority I would assume aren't real thrilled about it - and the whole speil about fake email addresses cuz folk don't want to give out theirs - is bullshit - the correct answer is "then you don't get a domain" drive through please.
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Dean Anderson wrote:
Not so. You can use another registry. .COM, .NET, and .ORG may be the most popular, but they are not the only ones. When you refuse to do business with NSI, they don't send you email. They don't get lists and send email to random people. If you don't agree to let NSI send you email, they won't do business with you. Everyone agreed to those terms. Can't come back and change them later, because you don't like it.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with most of the mail I've gotten from them. Some of it a bit technically insulting, but that doesn't make it totally unreasonable from an email ethics point of view. It certainly doesn't qualify as spam, since it is in fact solicited. You paid $100+ for the privilege.
Technically, they aren't broadcasting either. They are sending email to their customers. Not potential future customers. Existing customers. They didn't buy this list from somewhere. They asked for, and required customers to give this information, and to give them permission to send email.
You seem to be in a conflict with your own rules, since you have said that you don't RBL companies that are using their own internal lists. As I thought, you aren't operating from some kind of moral or ethical principal, you are just bullying others. I just don't like that, whether you happen to be right or not.
2] They are sending to folks that use the service.
yes. which is: everybody who has a domain in COM, NET, or ORG.
Ahh, it has finally come to a confrontation with someone who quite possibly speaks more authoritatively for everyone in those domains than you do. This will be interesting, to say the least.
I wonder if RBLing NetSol is cause for them to put vix.com on hold. That would be a hoot. I suppose they actually could call you in breach of contract for refusing to receive email, refund your money, and cancel your domains.
--Dean
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-- I am nothing if not net-Q! - ras@poppa.clubrich.tiac.net
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<http://fcn.net/no> Microsoft's Web TV Network, with hundreds of thousands of subscribers, uses the real-time black hole list censorship software. Very disturbing since it niether tells it's clients their mail and WWW is being censored nor offers them the choice as to whether or not to allow this censorship. Outside their lame anti-spam statement there is no indication of any censorship anywhere else <http://www.webtv.net/antispam/>. Perhaps the people using WebTV would appreciate knowing the fact that Web TV censors their access. Or, even better, maybe Web TV could offer them the choice as to whether their black list is off or on (default to off). I'd be royally pissed off if I used WebTV and found out every- thing I did was behind some one fellow's idea of right and wrong. Shame on Web TV Networks! More info at: <http://fcn.net/no> Paul Vixie writes: <http://maps.vix.com/rbl/webtv.html> > If you received an error while trying to send mail to WebTV, > please click here. * (next page) > Having problems sending to WebTV? > > Although WebTVÊ(webtv.net) uses the RBL, they also have their own > list of IP addresses they reject mail from. Just because they > reject mail from a site does not mean that site is on the > MAPSÊRBL. > > You can check to see whether your IPÊaddress is on the RBL by > checking <URL:http://maps.vix.com/cgi-bin/lookup> ; enter your > IPÊaddress in the form. > > If you do not know what your IPÊaddress is, please contact your > system administrator or ISP. Complaining to us about WebTV's > actions is, unfortunately, largely useless, as we have no control > over how they (or anyone else) runs their systems. > > Please contact WebTVÊfor information on why your address block is > on their list, and how to get it removed. Bob Allisat Free Community Network _ bob@fcn.net . http://fcn.net http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft
Hi Bob, I don't think that anyone's listening to your agenda-based drivel. First., it should be made clear that this is not a first amendmant issue. This is not censorship. There is no mandate that anyone carry anyone's traffic into their network, especially traffic that is *stealing resources* from the receiving network. Also, most of us out there have great respect for the judgement and restraint of the RBL team, and in general we see the RBL as a Good Thing. And the ones of us that do actually use it *really* think it's a Good Thing. Maybe this is a thread you can best take to a forum like com-priv for followups? At 2:19 PM -0500 11/23/98, Bob Allisat wrote: > <http://fcn.net/no> > > Microsoft's Web TV Network, with hundreds of thousands of subscribers, > uses the real-time black hole list censorship software. Very disturbing > since it niether tells it's clients their mail and WWW is being censored > nor offers them the choice as to whether or not to allow this censorship. > Outside their lame anti-spam statement there is no indication of any > censorship anywhere else <http://www.webtv.net/antispam/>. > > Perhaps the people using WebTV would appreciate knowing the fact that > Web TV censors their access. Or, even better, maybe Web TV could offer > them the choice as to whether their black list is off or on (default > to off). I'd be royally pissed off if I used WebTV and found out every- > thing I did was behind some one fellow's idea of right and wrong. Shame > on Web TV Networks! More info at: > > <http://fcn.net/no> > > Paul Vixie writes: > <http://maps.vix.com/rbl/webtv.html> >> If you received an error while trying to send mail to WebTV, >> please click here. > * (next page) >> Having problems sending to WebTV? >> >> Although WebTVÊ(webtv.net) uses the RBL, they also have their own >> list of IP addresses they reject mail from. Just because they >> reject mail from a site does not mean that site is on the >> MAPSÊRBL. >> >> You can check to see whether your IPÊaddress is on the RBL by >> checking <URL:http://maps.vix.com/cgi-bin/lookup> ; enter your >> IPÊaddress in the form. >> >> If you do not know what your IPÊaddress is, please contact your >> system administrator or ISP. Complaining to us about WebTV's >> actions is, unfortunately, largely useless, as we have no control >> over how they (or anyone else) runs their systems. >> >> Please contact WebTVÊfor information on why your address block is >> on their list, and how to get it removed. > > Bob Allisat > > Free Community Network _ bob@fcn.net . http://fcn.net > http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft
Microsoft's Web TV Network, with hundreds of thousands of subscribers, uses the real-time black hole list censorship software. Very disturbing since it niether tells it's clients their mail and WWW is being censored nor offers them the choice as to whether or not to allow this censorship. Outside their lame anti-spam statement there is no indication of any censorship anywhere else <http://www.webtv.net/antispam/>.
Thanks for pointing me to a good source of spamming hosts/domains! Rubens Kuhl Jr.
On Mon, Nov 23, 1998 at 06:44:51PM -0200, Rubens Kuhl Jr. wrote:
Microsoft's Web TV Network, with hundreds of thousands of subscribers, uses the real-time black hole list censorship software. Very disturbing since it niether tells it's clients their mail and WWW is being censored nor offers them the choice as to whether or not to allow this censorship. Outside their lame anti-spam statement there is no indication of any censorship anywhere else <http://www.webtv.net/antispam/>.
Thanks for pointing me to a good source of spamming hosts/domains!
IT'S NOT. WebTV is stupid. They are blocking everyone that spams them even once. Including providers like Erols who are known to take swift action against net abusers (but Erols may have gotten that fixed by now.) -- Steve Sobol [sjsobol@nacs.net] Part-time Support Droid [support@nacs.net] NACS Spaminator [abuse@nacs.net] Spotted on a bumper sticker: "Possum. The other white meat."
Bob Allisat writes:
Microsoft's Web TV Network, with hundreds of thousands of subscribers, uses the real-time black hole list
<remaining drivel snipped> Bob, It's bad enough that you feel compelled to continue ranting about the RBL. However, I guess that's your job as our resident net.kook. What's particularly annoying is the fact that someone graciously set up a mailing list specifically to discuss RBL issues, and at least one of the principals of the RBL reads that list, and yet you *still* felt it necessary to spam NANOG with this non-operational, non-relevant crap. Please note the Reply-To: of this message. --Jeff
participants (6)
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Bob Allisat -
Dean Anderson -
Jeff Aitken -
Rubens Kuhl Jr. -
Steven J. Sobol -
Wayne