companies like microsoft and telia...
...are doing more to help spam than to stop it, in spite of themselves. consider microsoft-yahoo-aol's big fad of the moment which is suing spammers and blaming asia. the number one (#1) contributor to spam is open proxies running on windows/xp, several of which are installed by default as side effects of other user activities. spam can now come from tens of millions of untraceable places, and since it's an open proxy rather than an open relay there isn't even a Received: header trail. WHAT a marketing department, though, to be able to (successfully!) blame spam on asia. but what have we here? i would not have imagined that in 2003 any company could be as blatantly irresponsible as to behave the way telia documents here: route: 217.208.0.0/13 descr: TELIANET-BLK remarks: Abuse issues should be reported at remarks: http://www.telia.com/security/ remarks: Mail to abuse@telia.net will be auto-replied remarks: and referred to the URL above. origin: AS3301 mnt-by: TELIANET-RR changed: rr@telia.net 20010508 source: RIPE excuse me, telia, but your customers are spamming me, and i have no plans to teach lartomatic (my homebrew complaintbot) how to log into your web site. it is the year 2003, and you bloody well need to learn how to accept complaints about YOUR CUSTOMERS using a format that is most convenient to THE VICTIMS. (and you should be THANKING US FOR IT since we are DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU.) grrrrrrrrrrrrr. clearly i need to stop accepting e-mail from 217.208.0.0/13.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Paul Vixie wrote:
excuse me, telia, but your customers are spamming me, and i have no plans to teach lartomatic (my homebrew complaintbot) how to log into your web site. it is the year 2003, and you bloody well need to learn how to accept complaints about YOUR CUSTOMERS using a format that is most convenient to THE VICTIMS. (and you should be THANKING US FOR IT since we are DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU.)
I agree, I was furious as well when I first noticed it. They're doing it because a lot of people cannot report abuse in the proper way so they're punishing all of us. What they get out of it is automatic tracing of who did what when (because the date and IP is in a known format). Perhaps someone could write a bcp for an email-form that lays out the same information so we can make the complaints use this format and all abuse departments can accept using this form, to get some structure to it? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se
... it is the year 2003, and you bloody well need to learn how to accept complaints about YOUR CUSTOMERS using a format that is most convenient to THE VICTIMS. (and you should be THANKING US FOR IT since we are DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU.)
I agree, I was furious as well when I first noticed it. They're doing it because a lot of people cannot report abuse in the proper way so they're punishing all of us. What they get out of it is automatic tracing of who did what when (because the date and IP is in a known format).
how convenient -- for them, that is. however, it is counter to their own self-interest. as a network owner they need to know about abusive traffic that comes from their customers. making it hard to report means (buddabing!) that it won't be as often reported. how can THAT help?
Perhaps someone could write a bcp for an email-form that lays out the same information so we can make the complaints use this format and all abuse departments can accept using this form, to get some structure to it?
yow. i first asked that this be done in 1998, and for this very reason among others. can anybody beat that date (with an earlier one?) this is a hard problem but with outlook forms and sri-style ascii templates it's quite achievable. note though that many abusebots will reject MIME since it might contain a virus. and, there will be huge controversies about header munging, list cleaning, complaint forwarding, and definitions of "abuse", "consent", "implied consent", "recourse", and "standing". so if ``someone'' writes this up, count me as a grateful&willing reviewer. -- Paul Vixie
From: "Paul Vixie" <paul@vix.com>
route: 217.208.0.0/13 descr: TELIANET-BLK remarks: Abuse issues should be reported at remarks: http://www.telia.com/security/ remarks: Mail to abuse@telia.net will be auto-replied remarks: and referred to the URL above. origin: AS3301 mnt-by: TELIANET-RR changed: rr@telia.net 20010508 source: RIPE
[...] One would think they'd learn, after AOL blocked them. - Kandra
Paul Vixie wrote:
...are doing more to help spam than to stop it, in spite of themselves.
Paul, Have You tried to send a mail to abuse@telia.com/net? I belive the referal in the route object is stale and should have been taken away long ago. I know that Telia for a certain time did enforced all complaints thru the web page. That is not the case anymore and Abuse @ Telia are accepting reports the way that they should. I will make sure that the incorrect information is taken away. If You have any problems please contact me off list and I will be glad to help You out. -- amar
Paul Vixie wrote:
consider microsoft-yahoo-aol's big fad of the moment which is suing spammers and blaming asia. the number one (#1) contributor to spam
And then: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3020566.stm Not in that report, but on TV last night a M$ spokedroid was quoted as saying something like "... if Mr. Grainger offers definative proof he is innocent, we will drop the action." Erm, I thought that both the US and the UK subscribed to a doctrine of burden-of-proof on the accuser ? Peter
Let's not forget those little smtp daemons that you can install on your local machine to bypass your ISP's smtp server. I've actually installed a couple of them for small clients that needed a mail server their office could send through because Verizon's smtp server will not accept an email address that doesn't end with verizon.com. (I digress) The bottom line is all that email can come from countless thousands of dynamically addressed broadband ISP client machines. Any PIII or PIV machine of reasonable speed can send thousands of email messages per hour. There are lots of email blasting packages out there available for the download. Curtis On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Paul Vixie wrote:
...are doing more to help spam than to stop it, in spite of themselves.
consider microsoft-yahoo-aol's big fad of the moment which is suing spammers and blaming asia. the number one (#1) contributor to spam is open proxies running on windows/xp, several of which are installed by default as side effects of other user activities. spam can now come from tens of millions of untraceable places, and since it's an open proxy rather than an open relay there isn't even a Received: header trail. WHAT a marketing department, though, to be able to (successfully!) blame spam on asia.
but what have we here? i would not have imagined that in 2003 any company could be as blatantly irresponsible as to behave the way telia documents here:
route: 217.208.0.0/13 descr: TELIANET-BLK remarks: Abuse issues should be reported at remarks: http://www.telia.com/security/ remarks: Mail to abuse@telia.net will be auto-replied remarks: and referred to the URL above. origin: AS3301 mnt-by: TELIANET-RR changed: rr@telia.net 20010508 source: RIPE
excuse me, telia, but your customers are spamming me, and i have no plans to teach lartomatic (my homebrew complaintbot) how to log into your web site. it is the year 2003, and you bloody well need to learn how to accept complaints about YOUR CUSTOMERS using a format that is most convenient to THE VICTIMS. (and you should be THANKING US FOR IT since we are DOING YOUR WORK FOR YOU.)
grrrrrrrrrrrrr. clearly i need to stop accepting e-mail from 217.208.0.0/13.
-- -- Curtis Maurand mailto:curtis@maurand.com http://www.maurand.com
participants (7)
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amar -
Curtis Maurand -
Kandra Nygårds -
Mikael Abrahamsson -
Paul Vixie -
Paul Vixie -
Peter Galbavy