[Quotes reordered]
If you want good internet service to a particular point on the network, you must shop for it specifically and be prepared to continue to shop for it whenever the underlying network topology changes.
My point is that I should be able to expect better than a 40-percent loss rate to *any* point on the Net, at *any* time, from *any* provider. In fact, I think I should be able to expect less than 5 percent, and probably less than 1 percent. Back when I actually touched routers, I used to recommend that people upgrade their internal networks when loss rates hit 1 percent. A situation where I have to "shop around" for connectivity depending on what site I want to talk to that day is just plain unacceptable.
You're transiting two NAPs (MAE-WEST and the DEC exchange (?)) which both provide service that's essential on one hand (wide access to the greater Internet) and lousy on the other hand (focussed access to a particular site).
It doesn't look to me as though the loss is being introduced at the NAPS. If you look at the trace, you'll see that significant loss starts to appear within Alternet, well after MAE-west. It looks as though more loss appears inside BBN's network, although it's difficult to tell because of the already large Alternet loss.
my suggestion would be to ask cisco what isp they recommend for dialup access from your location, and dial in through them. you should be able to lop off 60% of your hops and probably 99% of your problems if you pick right.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I work for Cisco, so ordinarily I have a Frame Relay connectivity into Cisco's network. This week the computer I usually use for work is in for service. The Cisco LAN at my house is air-gapped from the personal LAN, and it would be a real pain to reconfigure everything, so for the moment I'm coming in to Cisco over the Net, using my personal service. It's purely temporary. If I did interactive work under these conditions on a regular basis, I'd have gone insane long ago. -- John B.
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 jbash@velvet.com wrote:
A situation where I have to "shop around" for connectivity depending on what site I want to talk to that day is just plain unacceptable.
If you're like most people working off site, there are a few hosts that you need to keep long TCP sessions open to, and the rest of the net that gets random traffic.
It doesn't look to me as though the loss is being introduced at the NAPS. If you look at the trace, you'll see that significant loss starts to appear within Alternet, well after MAE-west.
Traceroute is less useful a tool than you think in the face of congestive loss. Routers can and do selectively prioritize the queueing packets based on their type, and if I were a network operator I would have no hesitation about dropping traceroute or ping packets to low priority.
If I did interactive work under these conditions on a regular basis, I'd have gone insane long ago.
No, you would have changed ISPs a long time ago, instead of whining to NANOG that the entire world is providing sub-standard service. Ed
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 jbash@velvet.com wrote:
My point is that I should be able to expect better than a 40-percent loss rate to *any* point on the Net, at *any* time, from *any* provider. In fact, I think I should be able to expect less than 5 percent, and probably less than 1 percent.
Honestly, here I think you're smoking something. Whatever it is, it must be REAL good. (And from a coworker, a fellow sysadmin: "There is something to be said for the idiot; if the world was void of idiots, how then would *we* look?" How in the hell can you expect a 100% success rate over (1) a slow modem link, and (2) to *ANY* site on the world. Hell, do you have any *CLUE*--I know you don't--how many sites on the net have servers behind 28.8 links??? How great a packet loss do you expect when you access them?? Is that provider dependent??? *ANY* site--really? - mikedoug@texas.net - Michael Douglass )
Back when I actually touched routers, I used to recommend that people upgrade their internal networks when loss rates hit 1 percent.
Do you have a clue? Due to the structure of the Internet, you are *going* to have loss. It's inherent in the design of the system, and unavoidable. And for people upgrading their internal networks when packet loss hit 1%, woah, sounds like you must work in Sales.
A situation where I have to "shop around" for connectivity depending on what site I want to talk to that day is just plain unacceptable.
No, I beleive the person who recommended that suggested you shop around for the best provider *to start out with*, not bitch, whine, and moan when your connection is not 100% perfect through the one you currently have.
It doesn't look to me as though the loss is being introduced at the NAPS. If you look at the trace, you'll see that significant loss starts to appear within Alternet, well after MAE-west. It looks as though more loss appears inside BBN's network, although it's difficult to tell because of the already large Alternet loss.
Traceroute is *not* a good tool to diagnose packet loss problems. I've had traceroute tell me that a packet loss problem was between two points 3-4 hops "out", when actually it was with the T-1 at my site, the "first hop" in the trace.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I work for Cisco, so ordinarily I have a Frame Relay connectivity into Cisco's network. This week the computer I usually use for work is in for service. The Cisco LAN at my house is air-gapped from the personal LAN, and it would be a real pain to reconfigure everything, so for the moment I'm coming in to Cisco over the Net, using my personal service. It's purely temporary. If I did interactive work under these conditions on a regular basis, I'd have gone insane long ago.
I dont see where a temporary network problem such as you describe should result in a message being sent to the various ISPs and the NANOG list. My suggestion: quit bitching and wait for your FR connection to be restored, or reconfigure your current equipment (if you work at Cisco, it shouldn't be TOO hard). __________________________________________________________________ | bill bradford | system administrator, unix geek, and BOFH | | mrbill@texas.net | texas networking, inc. http://www.texas.net | | mrbill@mrbill.net | 210-272-8111 * 512-472-2532 | |------------------------------------------------------------------| | speak for my company? hell, I heardly speak for myself | ------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (3)
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Bill Bradford -
Edward Vielmetti -
jbash＠velvet.com