Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area
"Earth is a single point of failure."
On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications: No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A and B. IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless. Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ... Cheers Jorge
I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way). In the example of a tornado or other weather disturbance, wireless links are subject to fade just as much as any kind of aerial wired asset. Deepak Jain AiNET
-----Original Message----- From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12 PM To: Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
-----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area
"Earth is a single point of failure."
On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications:
No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A and B.
IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless.
Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ...
Cheers Jorge
Deepak Jain wrote:
I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way).
The federal stimulus earmarks $7 billion for broadband in underserved regions and another $11 billion for the "Smart Grid" (which needs network connectivity in order to be very Smart). It seems to me like broadband over powerlines (http://tinyurl.com/dyue7k ) is the obvious answer to getting the most out of that money. While recent reports of intruders in the legacy grid scare the crap out of me WRT the Smart Grid future (and dumb grid present), in the long term I worry more about the next Carrington event (http://tinyurl.com/c3xphd ). Building a new communication network for the Smart Grid seems like a step in the right direction toward being able power everything down in a real emergency. Your local power company probably wouldn't have to go far to get to a peering point either... The long term vision for the smart grid has other potential gains for the health and availability of our networks. I know that we see daily damage from power sags and spikes (even when absorbed by UPS, those still have a real world cost associated with the truck rolls to replace failed batteries). Some of that goes away when the whole usage curve smooths out as a result of demand-based pricing models that will be built into the Smart Grid. Ultimately I hope it goes to the application model. A lot of periodic jobs that use significant system CPU resources can be scheduled to run when electricity is cheapest, perhaps in consideration with what else is going on locally. Mike
Gino Villarini wrote:
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
A large company in the affected area had a T3 supplied by AT&T and a wireless link to another ISP that was fed by two metro-ethernet links by companies other than AT&T. All three uplinks were lost. So much for having backups,
-----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:r.engehausen@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:43 PM To: Gino Villarini Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area Gino Villarini wrote:
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
A large company in the affected area had a T3 supplied by AT&T and a wireless link to another ISP that was fed by two metro-ethernet links by companies other than AT&T.
All three uplinks were lost. So much for having backups,
This just goes to emphasize that when creating a diversity or backup scenario, you need to get full disclosure from Provider B that they do not use Provider A's facilities, including shared sheath, duct, etc in any way. Also, there is the need to avoid the same telco buildings, regen huts, etc. and in some cases, entire cities. Any telecom/datacom manager who has done their homework should be able to map out their paths back to critical diverse infrastructure. -Keith
If only circuit selection was based on redundant routes. =) Many times the number of carriers is limited, and existing partnerships, enemies, pricing, availability, and contract terms are further constraints. The physical circuit path is near the bottom of the criteria sheet in making a short list -- route diversity has to the decision maker's top priority if the customer stands a chance of actually achieving it. BTW, none of my customers has ever asked about our fiber routes. We're small, but you'd think someone would ask.... Frank -----Original Message----- From: Wallace Keith [mailto:kwallace@pcconnection.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Diversity - was: Fiber cut in SF area -----Original Message----- From: Roy [mailto:r.engehausen@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:43 PM To: Gino Villarini Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area Gino Villarini wrote:
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
A large company in the affected area had a T3 supplied by AT&T and a wireless link to another ISP that was fed by two metro-ethernet links by companies other than AT&T.
All three uplinks were lost. So much for having backups,
This just goes to emphasize that when creating a diversity or backup scenario, you need to get full disclosure from Provider B that they do not use Provider A's facilities, including shared sheath, duct, etc in any way. Also, there is the need to avoid the same telco buildings, regen huts, etc. and in some cases, entire cities. Any telecom/datacom manager who has done their homework should be able to map out their paths back to critical diverse infrastructure. -Keith
participants (6)
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Deepak Jain -
Frank Bulk -
Gino Villarini -
Mike Lewinski -
Roy -
Wallace Keith