First Post! Annoying Debate at Work.
NOTE: I have been a nanog observer for nearly a year. The following may be slightly off topic, but it seems as though nanog is my last hope. Recently at work, I've been battling fellow coworkers on a very simple debate. The fact that I will not "give in" on my argument really makes me look arrogant, but I absolutely refuse to let this one go without logical reason! The argument non-persuasively put is as follows: Is a USB Ethernet Adapter a "converter"? Personally, I say "no". My coworkers seem to say "yes". My argument: 1) Ethernet isnt "converted" to USB. The adapted information from the ethernet segment may traverse the USB segment if the NIC adapts it to the CPU, but is never "converted" to USB. You can use USB for many things, thus making it an underlying "serial bus" in which other technologies can traverse. Whatis.com definition: USB (Universal Serial Bus) is a plug-and-play interface between a computer and add-on devices (such as audio players, joysticks, keyboards, telephones, scanners, and printers). With USB, a new device can be added to your computer without having to add an adapter card or even having to turn the computer off. USB in this scenario would be synonymous with PCI, in regards to the type of technology that interfaces with the cpu. 2) I cant seem to place "converter" above layer 1. Yet a Network adapter ( both PCI or USB ) have layer 2 mac addresses that are stored into the PROM from the manufactor. From my understanding, if an ethernet frame comes in via cat5, and is destined for the wrong MAC address, the traffic will not move up the OSI model and to the PC; It will be dropped right there and then. Only frames destined for the correct MAC or broadcast will traverse the USB portion. If this is true, then aparantly our "converter" is doing a lot more than "converting" ethernet to "USB"! - Filtering, forwarding, encapsulating, de-encapsulating, etc. 3) Just because a device has two physical mediums of connectivity, dosent make it a "converter". My coworkers argue that a USB Ethernet adapter is an "Ethernet to USB Converter". If this is true, then the following could be said: a. A PCI Ethernet Adapter is a "converter" because it "converts" Ethernet to PCI. b. An Alcatel switch w/ a T1 and a DS3 controller card would be a "converter" because it "converts" cat5 from the T1 card to coax on the DS3 card. c. Lastly ( I love this one ), An integrated Ethernet adapter on a motherboard is a "converter" because it "converts" ethernet to uhh ?? processor? Riiiiight" My co-workers arguments are basically that because Ethernet is plugged into one side, and usb is plugged into the other, it's a converter. I strongly that's an understament if not an incorrect statement. Whats your take and why? Input from ANY of you would be GREATLY appreciated. Otherwise, a simple "I aggree with you" will be fine also! Thanks in advance! Christopher Aldridge Network Analyst CCNA/MCP/MCSA
USB in this scenario would be synonymous with PCI, in regards to the type of technology that interfaces with the cpu.
Yes.
3) Just because a device has two physical mediums of connectivity, dosent make it a ?converter?. My coworkers argue that a USB Ethernet adapter is an ?Ethernet to USB Converter?.
Perhaps they are being confused by the existence of things like USB/Serial and USB/Parallel "converters" (I have one of the former here, for when I need to plug my GPS receiver into my laptop), but in fact these are "adapters", just like the PCI/Serial and PCI/Parallel cards you might buy to fit in a PCI slot [although most PCs have this functionality on the motherboard, so extra cards are unnecessary]. Another way of telling that they are adapters (even the USB/Serial one) rather than converters, is that that they need Windows Drivers, which are added by the standard plug-n-pray system when you first attach that device to the PC. A genuine converter (like 9-25 pin serial) doesn't need a driver.
If this is true, then the following could be said: a. A PCI Ethernet Adapter is a ?converter? because it ?converts? Ethernet to PCI.
You are on the right track here - both the PCI and USB items are "adapters". Neither are "converters".
c. Lastly ( I love this one ), An integrated Ethernet adapter on a motherboard is a ?converter? because it ?converts? ethernet to uhh ?? processor? Riiiiight?
It's a few years since I designed a PC, but I think you'll find that motherboard adapters like are actually connected to the PCI bus, but internally across the PCB, rather than via a separable connector (and at early stages in their evolution using the exact same chip soldered to the motherboard as would have been on the plug-in card). -- Roland Perry
just say no to html
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>NOTE: I have been a nanog observer for nearly a year. The following may be slightly off topic, but it seems as though nanog is my last hope.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Recently at work, I’ve been battling fellow coworkers on a very simple debate. The fact that I will not “give in” on my argument really makes me look arrogant, but I absolutely refuse to let this one go without logical reason!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>The argument non-persuasively put is as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Is a USB Ethernet Adapter a “converter”?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Personally, I say “no”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>My coworkers seem to say “yes”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>My argument:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>1) Ethernet isnt “converted” to USB. The adapted information from the ethernet segment may traverse the USB segment if the NIC adapts it to the CPU, but is never “converted” to USB.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> You can use USB for many things, thus making it an underlying “serial bus” in which other technologies can traverse. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> Whatis.com definition: USB (Universal Serial Bus) is a plug-and-play interface between a computer and add-on devices (such as audio players, joysticks, keyboards, telephones, scanners, and printers). With USB, a new device can be added to your computer without having to add an adapter card or even having to turn the computer off. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> USB in this scenario would be synonymous with PCI, in regards to the type of technology that interfaces with the cpu.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>2) I cant seem to place “converter” above layer 1. Yet a Network adapter ( both PCI or USB ) have layer 2 mac addresses that are stored into the PROM from the manufactor. From my understanding, if an ethernet frame comes in via cat5, and is destined for the wrong MAC address, the traffic will not move up the OSI model and to the PC; It will be dropped right there and then. Only frames destined for the correct MAC or broadcast will traverse the USB portion. If this is true, then aparantly our “converter” is doing a lot more than “converting” ethernet to “USB”! - Filtering, forwarding, encapsulating, de-encapsulating, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>3) Just because a device has two physical mediums of connectivity, dosent make it a “converter”. My coworkers argue that a USB Ethernet adapter is an “Ethernet to USB Converter”. If this is true, then the following could be said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> a. A PCI Ethernet Adapter is a “converter” because it “converts” Ethernet to PCI.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> b. An Alcatel switch w/ a T1 and a DS3 controller card would be a “converter” because it “converts” cat5 from the T1 card to coax on the DS3 card.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'> c. Lastly ( I love this one ), An integrated Ethernet adapter on a motherboard is a “converter” because it “converts” ethernet to uhh ?? processor? Riiiiight”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>My co-workers arguments are basically that because Ethernet is plugged into one side, and usb is plugged into the other, it’s a converter.<br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>I strongly that’s an understament if not an incorrect statement. Whats your take and why?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> Input from ANY of you would be GREATLY appreciated. Otherwise, a simple “I aggree with you” will be fine also!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Christopher Aldridge</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Network Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>CCNA/MCP/MCSA<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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Randy Bush [2/29/2004 7:53 PM] :
just say no to html
and to top posting and fullquoting all the ugly, malformed microsoft html [1] as well, I hope? :) srs [1] I kind of repeated myself there, I fear
<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
-- srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9 manager, outblaze.com security and antispam operations
On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 01:54:36PM -0500, Ron da Silva wrote:
On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 08:47:21PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
Randy Bush [2/29/2004 7:53 PM] :
just say no to html
and to top posting and fullquoting all the ugly, malformed microsoft html [1] as well, I hope? :)
urlview and lynx are your firends...
and so is ispell i suppose.. -ron
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Christopher Aldridge wrote:
Is a USB Ethernet Adapter a "converter"? Personally, I say "no". My coworkers seem to say "yes".
I suspect the truth is that it is and it isnt... the complication being what you mean by terms like 'Ethernet' which comprises a number of standards across various layers of the OSI model.. also, does 'convertor' have a technical definition, I mean you plug ethernet in one side and USB in the other so there is obviously some sort of converting going on :) I'm not motivated enough to go thro all this email but just to expand on my point about ethernet, when you say ethernet you are talking about the cable, the rj45 plugs, the manchester encoding (it is manchester 4B5B isnt it?), the 802.x, 802.y (I forget), the llc, mac, framing, blah....... I suspect what the convertor does is take the frame, and send it out the USB in whatever format it needs to be data intact. Call this process what you like :) Steve
My argument:
1) Ethernet isnt "converted" to USB. The adapted information from the ethernet segment may traverse the USB segment if the NIC adapts it to the CPU, but is never "converted" to USB.
You can use USB for many things, thus making it an underlying "serial bus" in which other technologies can traverse.
Whatis.com definition: USB (Universal Serial Bus) is a plug-and-play interface between a computer and add-on devices (such as audio players, joysticks, keyboards, telephones, scanners, and printers). With USB, a new device can be added to your computer without having to add an adapter card or even having to turn the computer off.
USB in this scenario would be synonymous with PCI, in regards to the type of technology that interfaces with the cpu.
2) I cant seem to place "converter" above layer 1. Yet a Network adapter ( both PCI or USB ) have layer 2 mac addresses that are stored into the PROM from the manufactor. From my understanding, if an ethernet frame comes in via cat5, and is destined for the wrong MAC address, the traffic will not move up the OSI model and to the PC; It will be dropped right there and then. Only frames destined for the correct MAC or broadcast will traverse the USB portion. If this is true, then aparantly our "converter" is doing a lot more than "converting" ethernet to "USB"! - Filtering, forwarding, encapsulating, de-encapsulating, etc.
3) Just because a device has two physical mediums of connectivity, dosent make it a "converter". My coworkers argue that a USB Ethernet adapter is an "Ethernet to USB Converter". If this is true, then the following could be said:
a. A PCI Ethernet Adapter is a "converter" because it "converts" Ethernet to PCI.
b. An Alcatel switch w/ a T1 and a DS3 controller card would be a "converter" because it "converts" cat5 from the T1 card to coax on the DS3 card.
c. Lastly ( I love this one ), An integrated Ethernet adapter on a motherboard is a "converter" because it "converts" ethernet to uhh ?? processor? Riiiiight"
My co-workers arguments are basically that because Ethernet is plugged into one side, and usb is plugged into the other, it's a converter.
I strongly that's an understament if not an incorrect statement. Whats your take and why?
Input from ANY of you would be GREATLY appreciated. Otherwise, a simple "I aggree with you" will be fine also!
Thanks in advance!
Christopher Aldridge
Network Analyst
CCNA/MCP/MCSA
I suspect what the convertor does is take the frame, and send it out the USB in whatever format it needs to be data intact.
It sends highly processed(/extracted) data to a device driver running on the PC. Just like an ethernet adapter on a PC-card would. If it were in any sense still "ethernet" data, there would have to be an "ethernet card" inside the PC on the 'inside end' of the USB. And there isn't. (Apart from anything else, the ethernet cable might running at up to 100MBps, and the USB at perhaps a tenth of that on a good day). -- Roland Perry
participants (6)
-
Christopher Aldridge -
Randy Bush -
Roland Perry -
Ron da Silva -
Stephen J. Wilcox -
Suresh Ramasubramanian