The general rule of thumb for ARIN IP space is that if you need IP independence, you can't have it. <g> You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will do anything for you. Once you're at this point, they'll give you a /20 to renumber everyone, but will reserve a contiguous /19 for you if you can justify that you'll use it within the next 3-6 months. It's a real fun Catch-22. :) James Laszko Pipeline Communications, Inc. james@pcipros.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Lavine Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:22 AM To: nanog Subject: I want my own IPs I have recently been turned down by ARIN for an address block. I currently have 4 /24's from ISP's and would like IP independence. How do I convince ARIN to give me a block -- /20 I guess? The form I filled out does not make it easy. Philip __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, James Laszko wrote: > You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will > do anything for you. If you're multi-homed, however, the minimum allocation is a /22, not a /20. -Bill
On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:49:41AM -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, James Laszko wrote: > You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will > do anything for you.
If you're multi-homed, however, the minimum allocation is a /22, not a /20.
-Bill
Hrm.. I thought if you were NOT multihomed that it was really hard to qualify to begin with.. (that is, they insisted you pester your ISP instead.) Then again, I know four different people who deal with ARIN regularly and have four different interpretations of the rules which seem to vary with each application they submit... --- Wayne Bouchard web@typo.org Network Dude http://www.typo.org/~web/
In a message written on Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:35:38AM -0800, James Laszko wrote:
You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will do anything for you. Once you're at this point, they'll give you a /20 to renumber everyone, but will reserve a contiguous /19 for you if you can justify that you'll use it within the next 3-6 months.
Note, if you are multi-homed the prefix length is a /22. http://www.arin.net/policy/2002_3.html -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :) ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream." Leo Bicknell wrote:
In a message written on Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:35:38AM -0800, James Laszko wrote:
You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will do anything for you. Once you're at this point, they'll give you a /20 to renumber everyone, but will reserve a contiguous /19 for you if you can justify that you'll use it within the next 3-6 months.
Note, if you are multi-homed the prefix length is a /22.
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 14:14 -0500 Alex Kamantauskas <alexk@tugger.net> wrote:
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :)
ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream."
I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of 'efficient utilization' --- in other places it' mentions 80%, but that's only as ISP allocation and request for additional space... Anyone have a pointer as to the ARIN official definition of this language?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:57:46 -0700 Michael Loftis <mloftis@wgops.com> wrote:
The original intent of 2002-3 : Micro-Assignments for Multihomed Networks was to give a /24 to any party with an ASN, as it was possible to become an AS without having the ability to get your own address space. In the year+ before it was approved last Fall in Chicago, this was watered down to a /22. (FWIW, I opposed that.) However, to become an AS means that you have to be multi homed, i.e., have a connection to 2 or more providers. Since it is not hard to get a /24 from a provider if you are paying for a connection with them, then my understanding of the intent was that any ASN with two /24's should be able to get a /22. (I.e., for the microassignment, having an ASN was the crucial factor.) This is not the same as requesting an assignment for a /20 or smaller prefix, where different rules apply. If you are an ASN with two address blocks, I think that you qualify and should apply. Regards Marshall Eubanks
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 14:14 -0500 Alex Kamantauskas <alexk@tugger.net> wrote:
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :)
ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream."
I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of 'efficient utilization' --- in other places it' mentions 80%, but that's only as ISP allocation and request for additional space...
Anyone have a pointer as to the ARIN official definition of this language?
Actually, that's not true. The requirement for a direct end-user assignment of any size includes multihoming. Since RFC-compliant multihoming requires an ASN (consistent origin AS), one of the metrics used to determine if an organization is multihomed is the possession of (or application for) an ASN. This applies to any prefix size. Initially, there were going to be separate more stringent rules for obtaining a /24 microallocation, but, in the process of watering 2002-3 down to a /22, most of these additional requirements were also removed. The resulting policy is, in fact, essentially identical to the current policy except for the minimum allocation unit, and, the specification that /22 and /21 assignments and allocations will be taken from a different address pool than the larger ones. Owen --On Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:38 AM -0500 Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:57:46 -0700 Michael Loftis <mloftis@wgops.com> wrote:
The original intent of 2002-3 : Micro-Assignments for Multihomed Networks was to give a /24 to any party with an ASN, as it was possible to become an AS without having the ability to get your own address space. In the year+ before it was approved last Fall in Chicago, this was watered down to a /22. (FWIW, I opposed that.)
However, to become an AS means that you have to be multi homed, i.e., have a connection to 2 or more providers. Since it is not hard to get a /24 from a provider if you are paying for a connection with them, then my understanding of the intent was that any ASN with two /24's should be able to get a /22. (I.e., for the microassignment, having an ASN was the crucial factor.) This is not the same as requesting an assignment for a /20 or smaller prefix, where different rules apply.
If you are an ASN with two address blocks, I think that you qualify and should apply.
Regards Marshall Eubanks
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 14:14 -0500 Alex Kamantauskas <alexk@tugger.net> wrote:
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :)
ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream."
I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of 'efficient utilization' --- in other places it' mentions 80%, but that's only as ISP allocation and request for additional space...
Anyone have a pointer as to the ARIN official definition of this language?
-- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
Hello Owen; The original intent was to make it possible for multi-homed ASN to get a minimum address block (a /24), without any other particular qualifications. There was considerable debate, as you would expect on a proposal that took 3 Public Policy Meetings and 14 months to get through. As approved, it says merely : ------ Address Policy for Multi-homed Networks Multi-homed organizations may justify and obtain a block of address space with prefix length extending to /22 directly from ARIN. When prefixes are longer than /20, these micro-allocations or micro-assignments will be from a reserved block for that purpose. ------ Regardless of Section 4.2.2.2 may say, the above is what was voted on at the Chicago meeting. Given the original intent of 2002-3, and given the wording of it as passed, I view multi-homing as a strong justification for a /22. Clearly, if you get an make use of two /24 from your upstreams, you should qualify. If not, it may take more convincing, but it should not be ruled out. What comes to mind, though, is is this a tempest in a tea pot ? Has anyone gotten a microassignment ? What is their experience ? Please send any info to me offlist. (One of the points that we kept making about 2002-3 was that not many people would use it in practice.) Regards Marshall Eubanks On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:11:55 -0800 Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Actually, that's not true. The requirement for a direct end-user assignment of any size includes multihoming. Since RFC-compliant multihoming requires an ASN (consistent origin AS), one of the metrics used to determine if an organization is multihomed is the possession of (or application for) an ASN. This applies to any prefix size. Initially, there were going to be separate more stringent rules for obtaining a /24 microallocation, but, in the process of watering 2002-3 down to a /22, most of these additional requirements were also removed. The resulting policy is, in fact, essentially identical to the current policy except for the minimum allocation unit, and, the specification that /22 and /21 assignments and allocations will be taken from a different address pool than the larger ones.
Owen
--On Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:38 AM -0500 Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:57:46 -0700 Michael Loftis <mloftis@wgops.com> wrote:
The original intent of 2002-3 : Micro-Assignments for Multihomed Networks was to give a /24 to any party with an ASN, as it was possible to become an AS without having the ability to get your own address space. In the year+ before it was approved last Fall in Chicago, this was watered down to a /22. (FWIW, I opposed that.)
However, to become an AS means that you have to be multi homed, i.e., have a connection to 2 or more providers. Since it is not hard to get a /24 from a provider if you are paying for a connection with them, then my understanding of the intent was that any ASN with two /24's should be able to get a /22. (I.e., for the microassignment, having an ASN was the crucial factor.) This is not the same as requesting an assignment for a /20 or smaller prefix, where different rules apply.
If you are an ASN with two address blocks, I think that you qualify and should apply.
Regards Marshall Eubanks
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 14:14 -0500 Alex Kamantauskas <alexk@tugger.net> wrote:
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :)
ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream."
I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of 'efficient utilization' --- in other places it' mentions 80%, but that's only as ISP allocation and request for additional space...
Anyone have a pointer as to the ARIN official definition of this language?
-- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
While that is what was voted on at the public policy meeting, the BOD and the AC have the ability to do some modifications as long as the preserve the intent of the consensus obtained from the meeting and the PPML discussions. They are allowed to incorporate feedback from the last call, for example. What section 4.2.2.2 has is what was adopted by the ARIN BOD after positive recommendation from the AC. That is how the policy process worked at the time. I believe the new policy process works much the same way for that portion. Owen --On Sunday, November 14, 2004 9:01 PM -0500 Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> wrote:
Hello Owen;
The original intent was to make it possible for multi-homed ASN to get a minimum address block (a /24), without any other particular qualifications. There was considerable debate, as you would expect on a proposal that took 3 Public Policy Meetings and 14 months to get through. As approved, it says merely :
------ Address Policy for Multi-homed Networks
Multi-homed organizations may justify and obtain a block of address space with prefix length extending to /22 directly from ARIN. When prefixes are longer than /20, these micro-allocations or micro-assignments will be from a reserved block for that purpose. ------
Regardless of Section 4.2.2.2 may say, the above is what was voted on at the Chicago meeting. Given the original intent of 2002-3, and given the wording of it as passed, I view multi-homing as a strong justification for a /22. Clearly, if you get an make use of two /24 from your upstreams, you should qualify. If not, it may take more convincing, but it should not be ruled out.
What comes to mind, though, is is this a tempest in a tea pot ? Has anyone gotten a microassignment ? What is their experience ? Please send any info to me offlist. (One of the points that we kept making about 2002-3 was that not many people would use it in practice.)
Regards Marshall Eubanks
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:11:55 -0800 Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Actually, that's not true. The requirement for a direct end-user assignment of any size includes multihoming. Since RFC-compliant multihoming requires an ASN (consistent origin AS), one of the metrics used to determine if an organization is multihomed is the possession of (or application for) an ASN. This applies to any prefix size. Initially, there were going to be separate more stringent rules for obtaining a /24 microallocation, but, in the process of watering 2002-3 down to a /22, most of these additional requirements were also removed. The resulting policy is, in fact, essentially identical to the current policy except for the minimum allocation unit, and, the specification that /22 and /21 assignments and allocations will be taken from a different address pool than the larger ones.
Owen
--On Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:38 AM -0500 Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:57:46 -0700 Michael Loftis <mloftis@wgops.com> wrote:
The original intent of 2002-3 : Micro-Assignments for Multihomed Networks was to give a /24 to any party with an ASN, as it was possible to become an AS without having the ability to get your own address space. In the year+ before it was approved last Fall in Chicago, this was watered down to a /22. (FWIW, I opposed that.)
However, to become an AS means that you have to be multi homed, i.e., have a connection to 2 or more providers. Since it is not hard to get a /24 from a provider if you are paying for a connection with them, then my understanding of the intent was that any ASN with two /24's should be able to get a /22. (I.e., for the microassignment, having an ASN was the crucial factor.) This is not the same as requesting an assignment for a /20 or smaller prefix, where different rules apply.
If you are an ASN with two address blocks, I think that you qualify and should apply.
Regards Marshall Eubanks
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 14:14 -0500 Alex Kamantauskas <alexk@tugger.net> wrote:
Yep, I blinked while going through the small town of ARIN Policy and missed it :)
ARIN Number Resource Policy Manual, 4.2.2.2: "When requesting a /22, demonstrate the efficient utilization of a minimum contiguous or noncontiguous /23 (two /24s) from an upstream."
I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of 'efficient utilization' --- in other places it' mentions 80%, but that's only as ISP allocation and request for additional space...
Anyone have a pointer as to the ARIN official definition of this language?
-- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
-- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
However, to become an AS means that you have to be multi homed, i.e., have a connection to 2 or more providers. Since it is not hard to get a /24 from a provider if you are paying for a connection with them, then my understanding of the intent was that any ASN with two /24's should be able to get a /22. (I.e., for the microassignment, having an ASN was the crucial factor.) This is not the same as requesting an assignment for a /20 or smaller prefix, where different rules apply.
If you are an ASN with two address blocks, I think that you qualify and should apply.
It's not quite that simple. Suppose you're multihomed, have an ASN, and have /24's from several providers. But, you run all your hosts (perhaps several hundred or more) behind NAT except for a handful of necessarily public IP ones (DNS servers, web servers, mail servers, etc.). Say you've been given 3 /24's from 3 providers, but you only actually use about a /27 of public IPs. My understanding of current rules is that: 1) You don't qualify for PI space from ARIN (unless you're in the ARIN controlled regions of Africa). 2) 2 of your providers have violated the rules by automatically handing you a /24 with your leased lines as this is space you don't need and have no immediate intention of renumbering into. So, somehow its better that you announce 3 PA /24's into the global table instead of the 1 PI /24 you can't get. Hmmm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
2) 2 of your providers have violated the rules by automatically handing you a /24 with your leased lines as this is space you don't need and have no immediate intention of renumbering into.
So, somehow its better that you announce 3 PA /24's into the global table instead of the 1 PI /24 you can't get. Hmmm
You know who to blame when sub-optimal results occur when people break the rules -- the people who broke the rules. DS
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 10:35 AM -0800 James Laszko <jamesl@pcipros.com> wrote:
The general rule of thumb for ARIN IP space is that if you need IP independence, you can't have it. <g>
This is false. If you can properly justify your need, then, you can easily obtain addresses from ARIN. However, there is a process and documentation is required. You can't simply say "I need 4096 addresses, gimme" and expect to get a good result. I have made numerous applications to ARIN for allocations of varying sizes. I have had to explain and document things for them on each and every one, but, I have never been unable to get the space I needed from them. I will admit that in the past, ARIN has been more than a little difficult to deal with, but, in the last 3 years, that has changes significantly. The current ARIN staff is courteous, professional, and tries very hard to do the right thing. There is a significant public policy process and ARIN is very good about accepting and acting on feedback from the community. In the past, I was one of ARIN's bigest critics. Since then, they've actually listened and implemented many of my suggestions, and, I, for one, think they've done an admirable job with a difficult task.
You've basically got to have around 16 /24's utilized before ARIN will do anything for you. Once you're at this point, they'll give you a /20 to renumber everyone, but will reserve a contiguous /19 for you if you can justify that you'll use it within the next 3-6 months.
This is also completely false. Prior to the enactment of policies 2002-3 and 2003-15 (enacted at the same time), the MAU (minimum allocation unit) from ARIN was a /20(v4) or a /32(v6). Today, the v4 MAU is a /22. The v6 MAU is still a /32. Also, if you are running an exchange point, you can get a /24 from the exchange-point reservation. I think there are a couple of other micro-allocation exceptions, but, for general purposes, a /22 is the MAU. To get a /22, you simply need to demonstrate that you have at least 50% utilization of a /22. To get more space, you have to show 80% utilization of all previously allocated/assigned space.
It's a real fun Catch-22. :)
It's not a catch-22 at all. You submit a form with proper documentation and justification. They ask you some questions, you submit the answers and any additional supporting documentation. If you have fully justified and explained your need, you receive the address space. On average, this has taken me about 2 weeks. In optimum cases, I've gone from application to addresses in as little as 3 days, and, in a worst case, it once took me almost 6 weeks. I've never been unable to get addresses. (BTW, before anyone goes off on the but you're a large provider... tangent, no, I'm not. I haven't done any ISP transactions with ARIN in the last 4 years. All of my transactions since have been direct end-user assignments of /20 and longer prefixes) Owen -- If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
-----Original Message----- From: Owen DeLong {SNIP} It's not a catch-22 at all. You submit a form with proper documentation and justification. They ask you some questions, you submit the answers and any additional supporting documentation. If you have fully justified explained your need, you receive the address space.
I have to second this, it really is a simple process. I continue to hear horror stories from people who BELIEVE that it is hard to get PI space. Read the policy, submit the documentation that they ask for and you will do fine. In general I really like the fear factor. Honestly I think it helps keep overall utilization of v4 space down :) -Scott
--On Friday, November 12, 2004 15:43 -0500 "K. Scott Bethke" <scott@carpathiahost.com> wrote:
I have to second this, it really is a simple process. I continue to hear horror stories from people who BELIEVE that it is hard to get PI space. Read the policy, submit the documentation that they ask for and you will do fine. In general I really like the fear factor. Honestly I think it helps keep overall utilization of v4 space down :)
I certainly agree, I've never had any problems dealing with ARIN. The documentation burden and paperwork burden is extremely low too compared to many other processes I go through daily.
participants (11)
-
Alex Kamantauskas -
Bill Woodcock -
David Schwartz -
James Laszko -
Jon Lewis -
K. Scott Bethke -
Leo Bicknell -
Marshall Eubanks -
Michael Loftis -
Owen DeLong -
Wayne E. Bouchard