May I add that a lot of NANOG people actually use IRC for many reasons. You would be suprised to learn how many of the people posting to NANOG chat on a daily basis in a certain #nanog channel. Would you be pissed to know that I'm an IRCer and I also own NANOG.NET ? ohh and also, #nanog has members of "tier-1" peers on there. He's just asking a simple question and I think it would be interesting to know his answer. If our countries (I'm canadian) are so free, I should and we should all be allowed to say whatever we want, whenever we want which includes that blaxthos guy. the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list. -chris On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 trelane@2mbit.com wrote:

bash.org... bash.org... now where have I seen that... AAH YES! So then a group dedicated solely to efforts at documenting trolling on IRC should be given credibility as to what is/isn't said on NANOG? Yes there are members of ICANN, ARIN, and most "tier-1" peers on here. You might even see bash.org stick it's neck out and get it chopped off from time to time. And now back to things that are less fattening on my killfile.

...

----- Original Message ----- From: "Blaxthos" <blaxthos@bash.org> To: <william@elan.net> Cc: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Authority

...

hello,

i've been reading nanog-l/inet-access for many many years (just a shadow, i don't post).

i am just curious... do you have any authority/commission from arin (or anyone else)? or is yours a rogue vigilante mission? does anyone ask you to undertake the battles you feel justified in engaging in?

this is certainly not flame bait, but it is an honest question. you're very self-righteous, and although you may have valid points (i withold judgement) i really want to know what gives you the right/authority to say the things you say about others.

/blaxthos

In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions. If your country is different, I offer my condolences.

Paul

-- Andrew D Kirch | trelane@2mbit.com | Security Admin | Summit Open Source Development Group | www.sosdg.org GPG: 6EBD 5C98 958D 8F6B 5F66 4444 007B 0CE1 A369 604C key at http://www.sosdg.org/keys/trelane.key

On 10 Dec 2003 19:49 UTC Jeff S Wheeler <jsw@five-elements.com> wrote: |> the nanog-l is not WILLIAM LEIBZON's personnal hatered list. If he |> wants people to read on his stuff, he can just start his own list. | | Actually, he has his own mailing list, and it is closed to the public. | You can read it at http://archive.humbug.org.au/hijacked/ though this | is an unauthorized archive that some dissenting list member populates. The "Hijacked" list is certainly not William's private list, although he is a welcome contributor there. I am but the humble keeper of that list and with the rest of the participants we try to share information about IP/ASN misuse so that (parts of) the 'net can run more smoothly. Anyone can join and (within reason) contribute unless they appear to be involved with the routing of IP blocks of dubious provenance. (And yes, I admit it, I'm behind with the new joiners queue. Apologies for that!) The archive site is expected to be relocating on or about 12/31/2003 Blaxthos <blaxthos@bash.org> previously wrote: | I take issue with anyone who publically accuses another entity of | wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority. Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend with. -- Richard Cox

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Randy Bush wrote:

[ sorry to use your msg as a soapbox ]

I appreciate the apology. I think my point is being missed, however (and hopefully this reply will help legitimize the situation). It should be noted that the original post was directed to W@E, not to nanog-l (the list was only cc'd). I take issue with anyone who publically accuses another entity of wrongdoing beyond his scope of authority. If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!). That's liabel, and it is illegal (and wrong). It is no less wrong just because it is up to the victim of the post to take corrective/punative action in a civil forum (ie lawsuit). The correct action would be to lobby the authorities (police in the example, arin in this situation) to take enforcement measures, NOT to demand that the "criminals" justify their actions to you (specifically speaking to whom my email was originally addressed). There are fiscal and legal ramifications to what is being done here. Hope this helps clarify. /blaxthos

If people are speeding in my neighborhood, I can not go and take down their pictures, personal information, license plate numbers, etc., post them publically, and accuse them of breaking the law (even if they did!).

Yes you can.

That's liabel,

It is not libel, that they were speeding is a true statement. Truth is an absolute defense against a charge of libel.

and it is illegal (and wrong).

And what law does it violate? as previous respondent said "In the north-american country I happen to live in, you do not need 'authority' to express your opinions." I suspect I live in the same country, and here you need even less (i.e. zero) 'authority' to express that which is true. good day jon

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 william@elan.net wrote:

P.S. Note to other - this thread may have happened because of recent thread on layer42 on inet-access mail list. While I generally answer accusations, I'm not the one who starts such threads and do not think its approriate for nanog mail list, so this will be my only message here.

I think you've made plenty of accusations without basis, so to quote Richard Cox "Then you would appear to have a circular argument to contend with." Don't go around accusing people of malfeasance if you're not prepared to be confronted with your own wrongdoing (IE your own hijacked blocks), or to face the criticism of others when you're wrong. I generally try to stay out of these types of arguements, but I think that you should probably focus your efforts on something more productive than defaming other ISPs.