News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are interested in such things, go do something else. Male or female, people with this sort of attitude have no business in the industry. I could care less whether my colleagues are male or female, as long as they know their stuff and do their jobs. All this whining - and that's what it is - about 'gender balance' (whatever -that- is) is absurd. There may well not be as many women who are into this sort of thing as men, just as there may not be as many men who are into interior design or haute couture. So what? -----Original Message----- From: John M . Brown To: nanog@merit.edu Sent: 8/7/00 1:15 AM Subject: [OT] Valley of the Boyz http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/08/03/it.women/index.html
<rant> So, anybody want to take bets ? I bet the young lady, in the interview, within her first 2 years, makes a BEE-LINE for management, and starts -insisting- everyone wears a tie, so they look professional. Remember, IBM salesman -rammed- "dark tie, and white shirt" down the industries throat.. You weren't -professional- unless you dressed, in this fashion. Corporate America's management bought into this load of malarkey, wholeheartedly. (I suspect their ties were too tight..) So, soon corporate America was looking down their nose at anyone who couldn't play the management conformity game... After all, your not a -professional- with out a dark tie, and light suit. Meantime, back at IBM HQ, at the Watson Research center, the top IBM techs , such as Benoit, were running around in cut offs, and pony tails. Seems, to IBM, this rule was only true for -salesmen-, and trivial technicals, and IBM had a pioneer in their company who went -way- out of his way to make sure R&D TECHNICALS were -not- required to conform. According to his research, good technicals rarely enjoy conforming. It is management, and sales, that admire conformity. Nonetheless, a reality as sold by -salesman=, bought into by -management-, and propogated by -recruiters-, became the norm for technicals... it took us 20 years to throw that perspective out the window... and some big companies -still- by into that load of "stuff". Meanwhile , IBM kept running that research center, -without- such codes.... pointedly. Yes, I feel almost -positive- this young lady will seek management. I really do. Shortly thereafter, she will attempt to correct these errors in the industry, and set us all straight. She will recruit people who cannot stand discussing "tape drives, hardware, and wires", and management will back her wholeheartedly. I just know it. :\ </rant> rdobbins@netmore.net wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are interested in such things, go do something else.
Ummm, I think you guys are missing the point. The point is that guys live, breath and eat this stuff, but to most women, it's just a job. I am the only female technical person in my (admittedly small) company. One of the guys once described me as "being very good at my job, but it's just a job". I have no problem with that discription, when I go to lunch, I'm not interested in talking "tapes, hard drives and wiring", I do that at work. And yes, I have very little in common with these guys. Most of them go home where there are more computers than people, all networked together and play for hours (by play, I don't mean games, I mean they write programs and expirement with new technology). They *love* this stuff. I go home and don't even look at my computer unless I'm beeped. In a previous job, (again, the only woman) I was invited to stay and play networked doom with the guys one Friday night. I played for an hour, ok, it was fun, I'm done now. They played until 3am. Personally, I always thought it was just me, but maybe it is a gender thing. Is that bad? I really don't know. Sheryl Chapin CommTel Internet At 08:24 AM 8/7/00 -0500, Richard Irving wrote:
<rant>
So, anybody want to take bets ?
I bet the young lady, in the interview, within her first 2 years, makes a BEE-LINE for management, and starts -insisting- everyone wears a tie, so they look professional.
Remember, IBM salesman -rammed- "dark tie, and white shirt" down the industries throat.. You weren't -professional- unless you dressed, in this fashion.
Corporate America's management bought into this load of malarkey, wholeheartedly. (I suspect their ties were too tight..) So, soon corporate America was looking down their nose at anyone who couldn't play the management conformity game...
After all, your not a -professional- with out a dark tie, and light suit.
Meantime, back at IBM HQ, at the Watson Research center, the top IBM techs , such as Benoit, were running around in cut offs, and pony tails.
Seems, to IBM, this rule was only true for -salesmen-, and trivial technicals, and IBM had a pioneer in their company who went -way- out of his way to make sure R&D TECHNICALS were -not- required to conform. According to his research, good technicals rarely enjoy conforming.
It is management, and sales, that admire conformity.
Nonetheless, a reality as sold by -salesman=, bought into by -management-, and propogated by -recruiters-, became the norm for technicals... it took us 20 years to throw that perspective out the window... and some big companies -still- by into that load of "stuff".
Meanwhile , IBM kept running that research center, -without- such codes.... pointedly.
Yes, I feel almost -positive- this young lady will seek management. I really do.
Shortly thereafter, she will attempt to correct these errors in the industry, and set us all straight. She will recruit people who cannot stand discussing "tape drives, hardware, and wires", and management will back her wholeheartedly.
I just know it.
:\
</rant>
rdobbins@netmore.net wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are
interested
in such things, go do something else.
Edited to make it easier to comment (and it's an interesting comment that Sheryl uses an email system that encourages the "newer" style of commenting at the "top" of a conversation, instead of interspersed). I don't usually post in places like this, just read (and it's a fascinating read, BTW). Although you can't tell from the name, I'm female. Read on. Sheryl Chapin wrote:
rdobbins@netmore.net wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are
interested
in such things, go do something else.
Ummm, I think you guys are missing the point. The point is that guys live, breath and eat this stuff, but to most women, it's just a job. I am the only female technical person in my (admittedly small) company. One of the guys once described me as "being very good at my job, but it's just a job". I have no problem with that discription, when I go to lunch, I'm not interested in talking "tapes, hard drives and wiring", I do that at work.
Boy, this really set me back. I know that I'm on the edge of the norm for female (no, not in lifestyle choices, but work is another matter). I just don't think I realized how on the edge until the formation of the net-grrls mailing list, which I joined. I like talking about hard drives and wiring. So does my daughter. I recognize that not everyone wants to talk about computers, networks, and software all the time. I just get very frustrated when the representative female is always someone who is more like Sheryl, and less like me.
And yes, I have very little in common with these guys. Most of them go home where there are more computers than people, all networked together and play for hours (by play, I don't mean games, I mean they write programs and expirement with new technology). They *love* this stuff. I go home and don't even look at my computer unless I'm beeped.
DSL, two switches, 8 computers running everything from openbsd (of course) to win95 (no win2k or macos), three people, 4 palm pilots (three of them are mine, one's my daughter's).
Personally, I always thought it was just me, but maybe it is a gender thing. Is that bad? I really don't know.
It is a gender thing, but the pendulum swings wider than most think. I have two younger women that work with me, and both of them are more like me than Sheryl. There are plenty of other young (and not so young) women around, but I relate better to the ones that think nothing of staying up until 3 am because there's a little tiny flaw in the code that just has to be fixed. Why don't they ever interview someone like us? We exist, really. Sure, most women prefer more "well-rounded" lives, and I think that's ok. I've worked with plenty of guys who have the same attitude as Sheryl, and they have a much harder time defending wanting to go home on time, or talking about other subjects than networks and computers. They don't interview them, either. .shrdlu -- It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine only I set my mind in motion.
There is pleny of room in the world for nerds of all kinds. Diversity is beautiful! Narrow thinking will rob you of valuable experiences in life. You need to have full peripheral vision to appreciate the landscape. Dave.
I work with many technically competent women who hold more than 1 degree and not only do the calculations they also work on the bench hands on and create internet equipment. Having 2 daughters I have a different perspective on these issues. The politicization of this group and or networking would be a serious error in judgment, and in 5 years of being part of this group I have never seen any member of the male gender disrespect any woman here. Mob mentality is what ruins societies and those less technically competent use groups to promote themselves, irregardless of gender. It has been my experience to witness this over the last 31 years in computing, unfortunately. blah my 2 cents. Sheryl Chapin wrote:
Ummm, I think you guys are missing the point. The point is that guys live, breath and eat this stuff, but to most women, it's just a job. I am the only female technical person in my (admittedly small) company. One of the guys once described me as "being very good at my job, but it's just a job". I have no problem with that discription, when I go to lunch, I'm not interested in talking "tapes, hard drives and wiring", I do that at work.
And yes, I have very little in common with these guys. Most of them go home where there are more computers than people, all networked together and play for hours (by play, I don't mean games, I mean they write programs and expirement with new technology). They *love* this stuff. I go home and don't even look at my computer unless I'm beeped.
In a previous job, (again, the only woman) I was invited to stay and play networked doom with the guys one Friday night. I played for an hour, ok, it was fun, I'm done now. They played until 3am.
Personally, I always thought it was just me, but maybe it is a gender thing. Is that bad? I really don't know.
Sheryl Chapin CommTel Internet
At 08:24 AM 8/7/00 -0500, Richard Irving wrote:
<rant>
So, anybody want to take bets ?
I bet the young lady, in the interview, within her first 2 years, makes a BEE-LINE for management, and starts -insisting- everyone wears a tie, so they look professional.
Remember, IBM salesman -rammed- "dark tie, and white shirt" down the industries throat.. You weren't -professional- unless you dressed, in this fashion.
Corporate America's management bought into this load of malarkey, wholeheartedly. (I suspect their ties were too tight..) So, soon corporate America was looking down their nose at anyone who couldn't play the management conformity game...
After all, your not a -professional- with out a dark tie, and light suit.
Meantime, back at IBM HQ, at the Watson Research center, the top IBM techs , such as Benoit, were running around in cut offs, and pony tails.
Seems, to IBM, this rule was only true for -salesmen-, and trivial technicals, and IBM had a pioneer in their company who went -way- out of his way to make sure R&D TECHNICALS were -not- required to conform. According to his research, good technicals rarely enjoy conforming.
It is management, and sales, that admire conformity.
Nonetheless, a reality as sold by -salesman=, bought into by -management-, and propogated by -recruiters-, became the norm for technicals... it took us 20 years to throw that perspective out the window... and some big companies -still- by into that load of "stuff".
Meanwhile , IBM kept running that research center, -without- such codes.... pointedly.
Yes, I feel almost -positive- this young lady will seek management. I really do.
Shortly thereafter, she will attempt to correct these errors in the industry, and set us all straight. She will recruit people who cannot stand discussing "tape drives, hardware, and wires", and management will back her wholeheartedly.
I just know it.
:\
</rant>
rdobbins@netmore.net wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are
interested
in such things, go do something else.
-- Thank you; |--------------------------------| | Thinking is a learned process. | | ICANN member @large | | Gigabit over IP, ieee 802.17 | |--------------------------------| Henry R. Linneweh
This thread reminds me very strongly of a discussion back a long time ago, on Usenet. Might have been before the Great Renaming, or else only shortly after. Mid-'80s sometime. People were going back and forth about the gender inequity. The focus of that debate was on the world-class hackers, the folks everyone else knows and respects. Gosper, rms, Gosling, that sort. They were all guys. Pretty overwhelmingly still are, there may be the odd exception, but at the cutting edge this is still one of the most remarkably male-only businesses out there. Easier to find major, important female politicians, or businessmen, or lawyers, or doctors, or pretty much anything else, then hard-core software engineers. The only offering I recall from that previous debate that had real explanatory power and matched up well with peoples' experience, was that the apprenticeship for this craft, where people really learn the important meat of the field, is typically a place and time where folks get really, really obsessed: somewhere in the late teens or early 20s, circumstances (often college) leave the obsessing types spending nearly every waking hour concentrating on computers, for a span of years. This tends to weed out the folks who aren't already more or less social rejects, and that in turn leads to a real gender bias, in our society. -Bennett
Bennett Todd wrote:
is typically a place and time where folks get really, really obsessed: somewhere in the late teens or early 20s, circumstances (often college) leave the obsessing types spending nearly every waking hour concentrating on computers, for a span of years. This tends to weed out the folks who aren't already more or less social rejects, and that in turn leads to a real gender bias, in our society.
I do hate to extend this, but I thought one more person's experience may be relevant. My wife and I met in our late teens and I was pretty obsessive about computers. She wasn't, but she got the bug and it hasn't been the same since (she actually had a computer and was programming before I was but had overprotective parents that were highly concerned that the technology they couldn't understand could be destroyed with software - a phobia that many parents instill in their children, more with daughters than sons.) Now we're more or less social rejects with three kids and still have more computers than people in our home. We met over the Internet in 1988 and I'll say that as a cash-strapped person back then, the Internet saved us thousands of $$ in phone bills, making the first "killer-app" of the net expedited and inexpensive communications. My wife and I constantly talk shop, but she's not hardware oriented and I'm only somewhat software oriented. I do the hardware and she builds the software to glue it all together. In an IEEE Spectrum recently it was noted that the gender gap may be due to women relying more on image than men. I almost agree with this opinion as our society has taught women to present a nice image rather than getting ahead based on the merits of their work. Many women in my workplace are terrified of being judged solely on their merit, especially if pushed in a technical direction. Our evaluation process is based more on image than substance and this impacts both men and women. Granted that highly meritorious work will result in a better evaluation, it is merely a compensating factor, not the means of measurement. In many areas, mediocrity is accepted if the proper social image is presented. In any relatively new industry, merit can be the only benchmark and that terrifies many people because it establishes an essentially binary judgement scale where there can be no compensating factors. -Nathan Lane
On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:26:33AM -0400, Sheryl Chapin wrote:
Ummm, I think you guys are missing the point. The point is that guys live, breath and eat this stuff, but to most women, it's just a job.
[...]
Personally, I always thought it was just me, but maybe it is a gender thing. Is that bad? I really don't know.
I think that you are trying to generalize from a rather limited experience with computer professionals. Take me, for instance. In some ways I'm very much like the people that you describe. I enjoy spending hours and hours tinkering with the computers and networks at work and home. I've even had dreams about my networks. Yet I enjoy talking with my co-workers about a variety of non-computer subjects like politics, movies, TV, music, home repair, kids, family, etc. But then I don't live in Silicon Valley or New York (I live in the Midwest) and I don't work for a .com or other high-tech firm (I work for a community college). So we are out there... Jeff
I understand your viewpoint but do you have any ideas on how to fix it? This differs from sexual discrimination where the company can control employee behavior. Sheryl Chapin wrote:
Ummm, I think you guys are missing the point. The point is that guys live, breath and eat this stuff, but to most women, it's just a job. I am the only female technical person in my (admittedly small) company. One of the guys once described me as "being very good at my job, but it's just a job". I have no problem with that discription, when I go to lunch, I'm not interested in talking "tapes, hard drives and wiring", I do that at work.
And yes, I have very little in common with these guys. Most of them go home where there are more computers than people, all networked together and play for hours (by play, I don't mean games, I mean they write programs and expirement with new technology). They *love* this stuff. I go home and don't even look at my computer unless I'm beeped.
In a previous job, (again, the only woman) I was invited to stay and play networked doom with the guys one Friday night. I played for an hour, ok, it was fun, I'm done now. They played until 3am.
Personally, I always thought it was just me, but maybe it is a gender thing. Is that bad? I really don't know.
Sheryl Chapin CommTel Internet
At 08:24 AM 8/7/00 -0500, Richard Irving wrote:
<rant>
So, anybody want to take bets ?
I bet the young lady, in the interview, within her first 2 years, makes a BEE-LINE for management, and starts -insisting- everyone wears a tie, so they look professional.
Remember, IBM salesman -rammed- "dark tie, and white shirt" down the industries throat.. You weren't -professional- unless you dressed, in this fashion.
Corporate America's management bought into this load of malarkey, wholeheartedly. (I suspect their ties were too tight..) So, soon corporate America was looking down their nose at anyone who couldn't play the management conformity game...
After all, your not a -professional- with out a dark tie, and light suit.
Meantime, back at IBM HQ, at the Watson Research center, the top IBM techs , such as Benoit, were running around in cut offs, and pony tails.
Seems, to IBM, this rule was only true for -salesmen-, and trivial technicals, and IBM had a pioneer in their company who went -way- out of his way to make sure R&D TECHNICALS were -not- required to conform. According to his research, good technicals rarely enjoy conforming.
It is management, and sales, that admire conformity.
Nonetheless, a reality as sold by -salesman=, bought into by -management-, and propogated by -recruiters-, became the norm for technicals... it took us 20 years to throw that perspective out the window... and some big companies -still- by into that load of "stuff".
Meanwhile , IBM kept running that research center, -without- such codes.... pointedly.
Yes, I feel almost -positive- this young lady will seek management. I really do.
Shortly thereafter, she will attempt to correct these errors in the industry, and set us all straight. She will recruit people who cannot stand discussing "tape drives, hardware, and wires", and management will back her wholeheartedly.
I just know it.
:\
</rant>
rdobbins@netmore.net wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines". So, if you have nothing in common with people who are
interested
in such things, go do something else.
2000-08-07-11:51:44 Roy:
I understand your viewpoint but do you have any ideas on how to fix it? This differs from sexual discrimination where the company can control employee behavior.
Fix what? Are you hoping to prevent your hard-core techies from obsessing so, or to try and get the rest to be more obsessive? Either way, rotsa ruck:-). -Bennett
Roy wrote:
I understand your viewpoint but do you have any ideas on how to fix it? This differs from sexual discrimination where the company can control employee behavior.
I don't find this to be discriminatory, which is a point that is often lost on folk who want everything to be equally subdivided. *Warning* I tend NOT to be very politically correct. There are some occupations where men or women cluster in high percentages. Nursing is a prime example of women clustering. So is medicine in general. It isn't just that women have been guided into nursing, although some of that is certainly there. Programming (and most things computer/network related) tends to have a high concentration of males. While the art of programming itself is highly creative, the ability to handle things spatially is equally important. Good math skills are required, and those don't get shared out equally among the sexes. Just for grins, however, look at the number of DBAs that are female. There are never going to be equal percentages of women and men in any field that requires skills that are sex linked. Never. Life's not fair, but I prefer it to the alternatives. -- It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine only I set my mind in motion.
There are never going to be equal percentages of women and men in any field that requires skills that are sex linked. Never. Life's not fair, but I prefer it to the alternatives.
I was working with the Boston Fire Dept back in the 1970's when they first were considering allowing women on the force. I remember the same kind of, even more deeply felt, arguments: Women on average aren't as strong as men etc etc. Sounds good, I'd just point to some pot-bellied, 60 year old, rheumy looking wheezing chain-smoker firefighter and comment that I think we should make him the standard they're referring to since he seems to have a job and no one is complaining about his abilities. Whenever someone suggests changing the status quo the highest possible standard is pushed forward by the objectors rather than the only fair one which would be the lowest: It's fair when someone of that gender (race, whatever) is hired who is as good as the weakest hire of the majority group, not the strongest hire. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo*
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines".
like most mature businesses, much of it is about <shudder> people. in ten years, when we electro-nerds are in the positions in which our aerospace siblings found themselves in the late '60s onward, it will be partially because of our blatent social ignorance. "ignorance and pride, the nerd way" [ paraphrase of a bumper sticker about montana cowboys ] randy
At 8/7/00 -0700, Randy Bush wrote:
News flash, lady - IT -is- "tape drives and hardware and wires and machines".
I don't think this issue really has anything to do with being male or female. It is more about entering a culture that you may not like. I have seen many male employees also that don't like to work in the "geeky" departments because they're not interested in the same things...or at least work is not their entire life. Naturally, those that do like "the tape drives" will all hang out together and share info and become better at their jobs so if you don't fit in, you won't be able to keep up with everything. That doesn't have much to do with the sex of those people. Hell, most of them don't even have sex! :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Froutan Email: pfroutan@rackspace.com Rackspace Managed Hosting <http://www.rackspace.com>
participants (13)
-
Barry Shein -
Bennett Todd -
Dave Bergum -
Etaoin Shrdlu -
Henry R. Linneweh -
Jeffrey C. Ollie -
Nathan Lane -
Paul Froutan -
Randy Bush -
rdobbins＠netmore.net -
Richard Irving -
Roy -
Sheryl Chapin