--- bryan@shout.net wrote: From: Bryan Holloway <bryan@shout.net> On 5/8/19 4:00 PM, Scott Weeks wrote:
--- job@ntt.net wrote: From: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
on this topic, i strongly recommend to operate all devices in the Etc/UTC timezone, this makes coordination with external entities much easier. ----------------------------------------
Yes, this! Holy crap I come upon a lot of networks that don't do this and it's always painful.
Now if only we could get rid of Daylight Saving Time ... ------------------------------------------ Luckily, Hawaii doesn't have that problem... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#Hawa... But, that's the thing. One time. No trying to figure out who does DST and who doesn't.
From the above:
=========================================== Arizona has not observed DST since 1967 Calif - in 2018, voters ratified a legislative plan for year-round daylight saving time, subject to congressional approval. On March 6, 2018, the Florida Senate approved the "Sunshine Protection Act" which would put Florida on permanent Daylight Saving Time year round...Congress would need to amend the existing 1966 federal law to allow the change. Hawaii has never observed daylight saving time ============================================ etc... scott
On 5/8/19 6:54 PM, Scott Weeks wrote:
--- bryan@shout.net wrote: From: Bryan Holloway <bryan@shout.net> On 5/8/19 4:00 PM, Scott Weeks wrote:
--- job@ntt.net wrote: From: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
on this topic, i strongly recommend to operate all devices in the Etc/UTC timezone, this makes coordination with external entities much easier. ----------------------------------------
Yes, this! Holy crap I come upon a lot of networks that don't do this and it's always painful.
Now if only we could get rid of Daylight Saving Time ... ------------------------------------------
Luckily, Hawaii doesn't have that problem...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#Hawa...
But, that's the thing. One time. No trying to figure out who does DST and who doesn't.
100% true. But there is also a practical side to this ... When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation. And that calculation annoyingly depends on the time of year in many if not most locales worldwide. And to make matters worse, some folks change at different times of the year, so, if you're a global network ............ Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Bryan Holloway wrote:
100% true. But there is also a practical side to this ...
When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation. And that calculation annoyingly depends on the time of year in many if not most locales worldwide. And to make matters worse, some folks change at different times of the year, so, if you're a global network ............
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Clocks are cheap. I have two on the wall; one is local time and the other is marked GMT. - Brian
On 5/8/19 7:55 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Bryan Holloway wrote:
100% true. But there is also a practical side to this ...
When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation. And that calculation annoyingly depends on the time of year in many if not most locales worldwide. And to make matters worse, some folks change at different times of the year, so, if you're a global network ............
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Clocks are cheap. I have two on the wall; one is local time and the other is marked GMT. - Brian
Cheap != free. Many clocks have to be set after a DST change. Clocks that do this automatically are > cheap. I stand by my point. Disclaimer: I have two clocks.
On 5/8/19 10:15 PM, Bryan Holloway wrote:
On 5/8/19 7:55 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Bryan Holloway wrote:
100% true. But there is also a practical side to this ...
When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation. And that calculation annoyingly depends on the time of year in many if not most locales worldwide. And to make matters worse, some folks change at different times of the year, so, if you're a global network ............
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Clocks are cheap. I have two on the wall; one is local time and the other is marked GMT. - Brian
Cheap != free. Many clocks have to be set after a DST change. Clocks that do this automatically are > cheap.
I stand by my point.
Disclaimer: I have two clocks.
And furthermore, GMT != UTC.
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 7:16 PM Bryan Holloway <bryan@shout.net> wrote:
On 5/8/19 7:55 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Bryan Holloway wrote:
100% true. But there is also a practical side to this ...
When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation. And that calculation annoyingly depends on the time of year in many if not most locales worldwide. And to make matters worse, some folks change at different times of the year, so, if you're a global network ............
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Clocks are cheap. I have two on the wall; one is local time and the other is marked GMT. - Brian
Cheap != free. Many clocks have to be set after a DST change. Clocks that do this automatically are > cheap.
I stand by my point.
Disclaimer: I have two clocks.
Assuming that WWVB will persist (a medium-sized assumption) ... The La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic (not affiliated, just a fan) tracks DST - and even leap seconds. They have much better reach than previous similar clocks. Mine work during daytime deep inside buildings in Alaska, far outside the traditional WWVB reach. They're also also simple and legible, which could make them a good NOC choice. Local timezone is adjustable, so you could easily run one on local time and one on UTC. They also change their hand positions to indicate low-battery status. Not cheap, but not too bad - price hovers around US$48-$52. Big fan. Royce
Once upon a time, Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com> said:
The La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic (not affiliated, just a fan) tracks DST - and even leap seconds. They have much better reach than previous similar clocks.
Looks like somebody finally brought a clock to market that uses the new-format phase-modulated signal. Hopefully there'll be more, but with the WWVB funding threats, I wouldn't be surprised if companies don't want to invest in any new products that use it. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>:
Once upon a time, Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com> said:
The La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic (not affiliated, just a fan) tracks DST - and even leap seconds. They have much better reach than previous similar clocks.
Looks like somebody finally brought a clock to market that uses the new-format phase-modulated signal. Hopefully there'll be more, but with the WWVB funding threats, I wouldn't be surprised if companies don't want to invest in any new products that use it.
Interesting - first device I've heard of that uses the new-format fine modulation, and as NTPsec's tech lead I keep as close an eye on such developments as anybody. Before this I had thought that a combination of clock vendors feeling burned by the modulation change and cheap GPSes entirely killed the market for devices that can get high-precision time from WWBV. Anybody know of anything fitting that description that you might want to deploy in a data center as a Stratum 1? If such a creature exists I shall contrive to get my lunch hooks on one and write a driver for it. -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 11:12 PM Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
Once upon a time, Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com> said:
The La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS UltrAtomic (not affiliated, just a fan)
Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>: tracks
DST - and even leap seconds. They have much better reach than previous similar clocks.
Looks like somebody finally brought a clock to market that uses the new-format phase-modulated signal. Hopefully there'll be more, but with the WWVB funding threats, I wouldn't be surprised if companies don't want to invest in any new products that use it.
Interesting - first device I've heard of that uses the new-format fine modulation, and as NTPsec's tech lead I keep as close an eye on such developments as anybody.
Before this I had thought that a combination of clock vendors feeling burned by the modulation change and cheap GPSes entirely killed the market for devices that can get high-precision time from WWBV.
Anybody know of anything fitting that description that you might want to deploy in a data center as a Stratum 1? If such a creature exists I shall contrive to get my lunch hooks on one and write a driver for it.
That would be fantastic. I mentioned it on Freenode when it first came out - but it may have escaped your attention. :) An eBay search for "EverSet ES100 WWVB BPSK Phase Modulation Receiver Kit" should prove fruitful. I have one - but I haven't had time to tinker with it yet. The kit comes with the double-antenna setup that appears to be key to the improved reception. In the clocks, the antennas are at 90 degrees relative to each other. Royce
Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com>:
Anybody know of anything fitting that description that you might want to deploy in a data center as a Stratum 1? If such a creature exists I shall contrive to get my lunch hooks on one and write a driver for it.
That would be fantastic. I mentioned it on Freenode when it first came out - but it may have escaped your attention. :)
An eBay search for "EverSet ES100 WWVB BPSK Phase Modulation Receiver Kit" should prove fruitful. I have one - but I haven't had time to tinker with it yet.
The kit comes with the double-antenna setup that appears to be key to the improved reception. In the clocks, the antennas are at 90 degrees relative to each other.
Alas. In concept, that is extremely interesting. But a bit too bare-metal for me; first I'd have to recruit help to design and build it into something one of my computers can talk to. OTOH, I have written successful I2C code; if something like this hardware were a Raspberry Pi HAT I'd have bought one before I finished typing this reply and probably have a test system up in 24 hours. So it's close. Real close. Relevant link: https://www.ntpsec.org/white-papers/stratum-1-microserver-howto/ It would be delightful to add a WWVB radio version of the build to that document. -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
Bryan Holloway <bryan@shout.net> wrote:
On 5/8/19 7:55 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
On Wed, May 08, 2019 at 07:47:56PM -0500, Bryan Holloway wrote:
When a NOC-ling, in their own local timezone, says, "hey, what happened two hours ago?", they have to make a calculation.
Clocks are cheap.
Cheap != free.
You already got one with your computer, and if it is Free Software: $ TZ=Z date -d '2 hours ago' +%FT%TZ Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: Northwesterly 3 or 4 in southeast, otherwise southwesterly 4 or 5, occasionally 6 in north. Moderate or rough. Occasional rain. Good, occasionally poor.
On 9/May/19 02:47, Bryan Holloway wrote:
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Well, 2 months ago, the EU parliament voted to scrap daylight saving time from 2021. This would also apply to the UK if it chooses to remain in the EU, or during the extended transition period that Theresa May is currently working. It's now up to the various EU member states to decide whether they want to remain permanently in winter or permanently in summer. Of course, the UK government aren't necessarily amused. Mark.
On 14 May 2019, at 08:41, Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.mu> wrote:
On 9/May/19 02:47, Bryan Holloway wrote:
Hawai'i and Arizona can add/subtract without looking at the damn calendar. I'm just sayin' I'd like to see more of that.
Well, 2 months ago, the EU parliament voted to scrap daylight saving time from 2021. This would also apply to the UK if it chooses to remain in the EU, or during the extended transition period that Theresa May is currently working.
It's now up to the various EU member states to decide whether they want to remain permanently in winter or permanently in summer.
Of course, the UK government aren't necessarily amused.
Mark.
Dst Time works great for Scotland as allows kids to go to school during lighter hours. It has been proved to save road deaths Col
participants (9)
-
Brian Kantor -
Bryan Holloway -
Chris Adams -
colin johnston -
Eric S. Raymond -
Mark Tinka -
Royce Williams -
Scott Weeks -
Tony Finch