You know I can understand how discussing problems in DNS is an valid concern for netowrk operations I cant for the life of me figure out exactly how supposed netowrk and security professionals can show a complete lack of maturity and restraint. Thomas Ptacek is attempting to discuss in a level headed straight forward manner a serious problem and is being met with repeated insults, open hostility and down right rude behavior. Thomas is to be thanked for being the obviously better man, regardless of the validity of his opinions, for coming to the table in a direct, polite fashion. In an open forum it is sad to see people such as Perry Metzger, Paul Vixie, Paul Ferguson all stooping to attack people whose idea they dont like instead of addressing the issue. Can we please get back to the more adult discussion of the issues and leave the childish attacks on peoples intelligence, heritage, personal habits and the like to a more proper forum? this list is begining to remind me of a bad Beavis and Butthead nightmare. It would be most enjoyable to not have to see the following in the future. For example: From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com> I see my opinion of you was more than correct. You're a jerk. I'm sure you've never asked yourself why it is that the people who've written widely deployed software and standards and make the world work hold you in contempt. I'm sure you never will. That's because you're a jerk. Paul has been doing a very good job of slowly but surely getting BIND cleaned up, getting vastly improved code out there into the real world, and largely been paying for the effort out of his own pocket. He's worth about seven thousand Thomas Ptaceks -- perhaps worth more. Frankly, if I had a choice between saving you from drowning by some minimal action like pushing a button under my index finger and, for example, keeping someone from spilling a cup of coffee on Paul's pants, I'd say the latter would be more important for the world and would be the choice I'd almost certainly make. I mean this in the greatest of seriousness. I suspect that the more you post, the more that will become general community consensus as to your worth as a human being. From: Paul A Vixie <vixie@vix.com> you are sloppy, ill mannered, and ignorant. it's clear that you have not read rfc 1034 or rfc 1035 (much less 2010 or 2136), or that if you have read them you did not understand them. i have been sloppy, ill mannered, and ignorant in the past. but i did not display those traits when speaking to people who had been doing DNS work for ten years before i started. you have an uphill climb if you expect me to take you seriously in the future. it's not impossible. but from your continued arrogance and inability to see yourself through the eyes of others, i hold out very little hope. From: Paul Ferguson <pferguso@cisco.com> Sure, smart guy. And there are also issues with IP packets which are passed across untrusted nodes in the Internet. -craig ---------------- Craig Nottingham craig@mil.net