How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote:
Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier.
How do you choose transport & backbone?
Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else?
I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs.
I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now.
Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca> To: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> Cc: "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote: Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On 15/Dec/18 12:44, Mike Hammett wrote:
heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges.
This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward.
I think the Juniper MX204 is not a bad way to deliver reasonably inexpensive 100Gbps ports to customers. The box is reasonably priced and is, essentially, an MPC7 in a pizza jacket. If an operator is not overly religious about what box they hook high-capacity customers (40Gbps+) into, the MX204 is a good way to start offering affordable 40Gbps and 100Gbps services. Mark.
No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder? Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca<mailto:edugas@unknowndevice.ca>> To: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net<mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>> Cc: "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation [cid:image16fa4c.JPG@90b1ff03.44852df6] <http://www.rtconline.com> Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084 Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net<mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>> wrote: Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luke Guillory" <lguillory@reservetele.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder? Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca > To: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > Cc: "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084 Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. <blockquote> On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin < mehmet@akcin.net > wrote: <blockquote> Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> </blockquote>
Mike have you looked at Packetlight? Long-haul is mostly jumping to 100 or even 400g coherent. -Ben
On Dec 15, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
From: "Luke Guillory" <lguillory@reservetele.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder?
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges.
This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
From: "Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca> To: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> Cc: "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design).
Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC.
Eric
Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation
Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com
Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084
Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote: Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier.
How do you choose transport & backbone?
Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else?
I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs.
I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now.
Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I haven't. Sure, but the equipment still does smaller channels. Going to 100G or 400G for just over 10G seems silly. If Equinix had reasonable cross connects, I'd just LAG 10Gs. The cost of a pair of Equinix cross connects isn't much less than the 10G wave. Thankfully I'm only in one datacenter with such a ridiculous model. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Cannon" <ben@6by7.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Luke Guillory" <lguillory@reservetele.com>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 1:27:21 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) Mike have you looked at Packetlight? Long-haul is mostly jumping to 100 or even 400g coherent. -Ben On Dec 15, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luke Guillory" < lguillory@reservetele.com > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca >, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder? Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca > To: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > Cc: "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084 Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. <blockquote> On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin < mehmet@akcin.net > wrote: <blockquote> Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
Back to main discussion.... How do we choose the best transport? One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you Mehmet On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:30 Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
I haven't.
Sure, but the equipment still does smaller channels. Going to 100G or 400G for just over 10G seems silly.
If Equinix had reasonable cross connects, I'd just LAG 10Gs. The cost of a pair of Equinix cross connects isn't much less than the 10G wave. Thankfully I'm only in one datacenter with such a ridiculous model.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Ben Cannon" <ben@6by7.net> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"Luke Guillory" <lguillory@reservetele.com>, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Saturday, December 15, 2018 1:27:21 PM
*Subject: *Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
Mike have you looked at Packetlight? Long-haul is mostly jumping to 100 or even 400g coherent.
-Ben
On Dec 15, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Luke Guillory" <lguillory@reservetele.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> *Cc: *"Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM *Subject: *Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder?
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges.
This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ------------------------------ *From: *"Eric Dugas" <edugas@unknowndevice.ca> *To: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> *Cc: *"nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> *Sent: *Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM *Subject: *Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design).
Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC.
Eric
Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation
<http://www.rtconline.com> Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr <https://maps.google.com/?q=100+RTC+Dr+%0D%0AReserve,+LA+70084&entry=gmail&source=g> Reserve, LA 70084 <https://maps.google.com/?q=100+RTC+Dr+%0D%0AReserve,+LA+70084&entry=gmail&source=g>
*Disclaimer:* The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> wrote:
Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier.
How do you choose transport & backbone?
Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else?
I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs.
I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now.
Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
As long as you understand that vendor diversity doesn't imply route diversity. Diversity within a given vendor is still subject to the same chassis, the same automation platform, the same billing department, etc. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Ben Cannon" <ben@6by7.net>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 2:51:38 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) Back to main discussion.... How do we choose the best transport? One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you Mehmet On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:30 Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: I haven't. Sure, but the equipment still does smaller channels. Going to 100G or 400G for just over 10G seems silly. If Equinix had reasonable cross connects, I'd just LAG 10Gs. The cost of a pair of Equinix cross connects isn't much less than the 10G wave. Thankfully I'm only in one datacenter with such a ridiculous model. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Ben Cannon" < ben@6by7.net > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Luke Guillory" < lguillory@reservetele.com >, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 1:27:21 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) Mike have you looked at Packetlight? Long-haul is mostly jumping to 100 or even 400g coherent. -Ben On Dec 15, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Luke Guillory" < lguillory@reservetele.com > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca >, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder? Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca > To: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > Cc: "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084 Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. <blockquote> On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin < mehmet@akcin.net > wrote: <blockquote> Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity. As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse. As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can. I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day.... James W. Breeden Managing Partner [logo_transparent_background] Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 Email: james@arenalgroup.co<mailto:james@arenalgroup.co> | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co<http://www.arenalgroup.co/> ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity. As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse. As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
That's a great example. Thank you James for sharing. I have done so many "GROUND TRUTH" visits where randomly selected certain physical points to validate physical diversity. Have seen several places where dual risers in the building were present or multiple building entries were available but not used. Ground truth events are certainly important and can be eye opening. It does not necessarily scale as you can't really walk all the fiber A-Z everywhere.. i know. On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 6:49 AM James Breeden <James@arenalgroup.co> wrote:
I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can.
I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day....
*James W. Breeden*
*Managing Partner*
*[image: logo_transparent_background]*
*Arenal Group:* Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media
PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957
Email: james@arenalgroup.co | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co ------------------------------ *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Brandon Martin < lists.nanog@monmotha.net> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM *To:* nanog@nanog.org *Subject:* Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank
you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity.
As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse.
As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
If people start spot-checking this stuff more regularly, perhaps the companies being verified will take delivering the correct product the first time more seriously. Some of it boils down to a lack of data quality about what they actually have. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> To: "James Breeden" <James@arenalgroup.co> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 12:17:42 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) That's a great example. Thank you James for sharing. I have done so many "GROUND TRUTH" visits where randomly selected certain physical points to validate physical diversity. Have seen several places where dual risers in the building were present or multiple building entries were available but not used. Ground truth events are certainly important and can be eye opening. It does not necessarily scale as you can't really walk all the fiber A-Z everywhere.. i know. On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 6:49 AM James Breeden < James@arenalgroup.co > wrote: I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can. I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day.... James W. Breeden Managing Partner logo_transparent_background Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 Email: james@arenalgroup.co | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co From: NANOG < nanog-bounces@nanog.org > on behalf of Brandon Martin < lists.nanog@monmotha.net > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity. As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse. As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
Some of it is due to lazy buyers purchasing two IP ports from distinct companies without considring that two ports both located at the site are vulnerable to shared risers or entrance facilities. - R. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:12 PM To: Mehmet Akcin Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) If people start spot-checking this stuff more regularly, perhaps the companies being verified will take delivering the correct product the first time more seriously. Some of it boils down to a lack of data quality about what they actually have. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> To: "James Breeden" <James@arenalgroup.co> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 12:17:42 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) That's a great example. Thank you James for sharing. I have done so many "GROUND TRUTH" visits where randomly selected certain physical points to validate physical diversity. Have seen several places where dual risers in the building were present or multiple building entries were available but not used. Ground truth events are certainly important and can be eye opening. It does not necessarily scale as you can't really walk all the fiber A-Z everywhere.. i know. On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 6:49 AM James Breeden <James@arenalgroup.co<mailto:James@arenalgroup.co>> wrote: I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can. I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day.... James W. Breeden Managing Partner [logo_transparent_background] Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 Email: james@arenalgroup.co<mailto:james@arenalgroup.co> | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co<http://www.arenalgroup.co/> ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>> on behalf of Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net<mailto:lists.nanog@monmotha.net>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity. As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse. As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
More likely everyone bought IRUs out of the same ILEC’s single cable. Or they just all go through the same single raceway to enter the building, etc. -Ben. - Ben Cannon, AS15206
On Dec 19, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Rod Beck <rod.beck@unitedcablecompany.com> wrote:
Some of it is due to lazy buyers purchasing two IP ports from distinct companies without considring that two ports both located at the site are vulnerable to shared risers or entrance facilities.
- R.
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 3:12 PM To: Mehmet Akcin Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
If people start spot-checking this stuff more regularly, perhaps the companies being verified will take delivering the correct product the first time more seriously.
Some of it boils down to a lack of data quality about what they actually have.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net <mailto:mehmet@akcin.net>> To: "James Breeden" <James@arenalgroup.co <mailto:James@arenalgroup.co>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 12:17:42 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
That's a great example. Thank you James for sharing. I have done so many "GROUND TRUTH" visits where randomly selected certain physical points to validate physical diversity. Have seen several places where dual risers in the building were present or multiple building entries were available but not used. Ground truth events are certainly important and can be eye opening. It does not necessarily scale as you can't really walk all the fiber A-Z everywhere.. i know.
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 6:49 AM James Breeden <James@arenalgroup.co <mailto:James@arenalgroup.co>> wrote: I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can.
I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day....
James W. Breeden Managing Partner
Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 Email: james@arenalgroup.co <mailto:james@arenalgroup.co> | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co <http://www.arenalgroup.co/> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>> on behalf of Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net <mailto:lists.nanog@monmotha.net>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity.
As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse.
As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
The Trans-Atlantic cables, particularly on the UK side, probably lack physical diversity. The landings at Bude probably share back haul. The cost of each cable digging its own trench was quite high. - R. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 7:17 PM To: James Breeden Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) That's a great example. Thank you James for sharing. I have done so many "GROUND TRUTH" visits where randomly selected certain physical points to validate physical diversity. Have seen several places where dual risers in the building were present or multiple building entries were available but not used. Ground truth events are certainly important and can be eye opening. It does not necessarily scale as you can't really walk all the fiber A-Z everywhere.. i know. On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 6:49 AM James Breeden <James@arenalgroup.co<mailto:James@arenalgroup.co>> wrote: I can't stress enough the importance of controlling your own route and even cable diversity. Require KMZs of the routes for any services you take (especially single path Wave type services). Put them in the contracts if you can. I've had at least 1 situation where we had vendor diversity and what was supposed to be route diversity- 3 separate waves coming south and southeast out of a datacenter to 3 separate cities. Imagine my surprise when we took a outage one day that severed all 3 circuits. Yes all 3 circuits, going to 3 separate cities, on 3 separate carrier/s DWDM platforms, all happened to show up in the same sheath of cable at one location that happened to experience backhoe fade. Was not a good day.... James W. Breeden Managing Partner [logo_transparent_background] Arenal Group: Arenal Consulting Group | Acilis Telecom | Pines Media PO Box 1063 | Smithville, TX 78957 Email: james@arenalgroup.co<mailto:james@arenalgroup.co> | office 512.360.0000 | cell 512.304.0745 | www.arenalgroup.co<http://www.arenalgroup.co/> ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>> on behalf of Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net<mailto:lists.nanog@monmotha.net>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:59:44 PM To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) On 12/17/18 3:51 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you
There are advantages and disadvantages to vendor diversity. As advantages, you won't be subject to complete loss of connection because of a single dispute or provisioning/control plane issue with that one vendor. You can also more easily pit vendors against each other for pricing if you are already vendor-diverse. As a disadvantage, not only does vendor diversity obviously not imply route diversity, but it will completely put the onus on you to ensure route diversity if you want it. With a single vendor, you can demand that your circuits have route diversity and, assuming you trust them, they have all the information they need to make that happen for you. -- Brandon Martin
I guess today shows how important vendor diversity can be. :-) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net> Cc: "Ben Cannon" <ben@6by7.net>, "nanog" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 2:51:38 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) Back to main discussion.... How do we choose the best transport? One question, how much people care about vendor diversity? I do and did care. I don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket. Do you care? Thank you Mehmet On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:30 Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: I haven't. Sure, but the equipment still does smaller channels. Going to 100G or 400G for just over 10G seems silly. If Equinix had reasonable cross connects, I'd just LAG 10Gs. The cost of a pair of Equinix cross connects isn't much less than the 10G wave. Thankfully I'm only in one datacenter with such a ridiculous model. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Ben Cannon" < ben@6by7.net > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Luke Guillory" < lguillory@reservetele.com >, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 1:27:21 PM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) Mike have you looked at Packetlight? Long-haul is mostly jumping to 100 or even 400g coherent. -Ben On Dec 15, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> FS had one, but it's not on their site anymore. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Luke Guillory" < lguillory@reservetele.com > To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog@ics-il.net > Cc: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca >, "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52:19 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) No cost affective 10x10G to 100G muxponder? Sent from my iPad On Dec 15, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> heh, cross connects are indeed a major issue. I have a need for > 10G transport. My equipment supports 40G. The carriers aren't terribly interested in doing 40G transport (at least not at a reasonable price, one quote was over 4x a 10G). 100G-capable switches cost too much. Equinix charges as much for a pair of cross connects as a 10G wave. Carriers aren't likely to be interested in using bidi optics or passive WDM to overcome the ridiculous cross connect charges. This all complicates how one chooses transport. There's no easy path forward. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Eric Dugas" < edugas@unknowndevice.ca > To: "Mehmet Akcin" < mehmet@akcin.net > Cc: "nanog" < nanog@nanog.org > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 11:42:53 AM Subject: Re: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) I also look at hand-off locations (as long as it doesn't compromise the overall robustness of the design). Most providers will be able to hand-off in the BMMR of a carrier hotel and some will have the flexibility to hand-off in particular suites within the same building or other locations near where the cross-connects fees are lower. I've seen cross-connect fees between $50 up to $750 MRC so if you need multiple wavelengths (for capacity), the cross-connect fees are going to make a huge difference on the total MRC. Eric Luke Guillory Vice President – Technology and Innovation Tel: 985.536.1212 Fax: 985.536.0300 Email: lguillory@reservetele.com Web: www.rtconline.com Reserve Telecommunications 100 RTC Dr Reserve, LA 70084 Disclaimer: The information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material which should not disseminate, distribute or be copied. Please notify Luke Guillory immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Luke Guillory therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. <blockquote> On Dec 14 2018, at 12:17 pm, Mehmet Akcin < mehmet@akcin.net > wrote: <blockquote> Thank you everyone incredible amounts of responses for my how to choose a transit provider smail earlier. How do you choose transport & backbone? Looking at key aspects like route information, diversity, aerial vs under ground fiber, age of fiber, outage history, length, but what else? I will get both transport and transit as two seperate blogs. I will also submit as a nanog paper for the meeting after next, or maybe next? I am probably too late by now. Thank you for all your help. I will add your names to the thank you line ;-) -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> -- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I'm of the opinion that, if you need resiliency, you should order explicitly diverse circuits from a primary provider and then a secondary circuit from a second vendor. Ultimately, If you want contractually-enforced physical diversity then the best options will be single-vendor solutions: Obviously you also want to avoid an unknown single-vendor single-point-of-failure, hence the secondary provider. Having two vendors is usually a less than optimal solution since neither has visibility into the others' network to ensure the physical diversity required for a truly resilient service: what happens if an undersea cable is cut, etc? The cost of such solutions is often unpleasant to justify, mind. ~a
All true but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine if a provider is using another providers infrastructure (all are at some level). For example, in the SIP world there are several national level carriers that are using Level 3s core SIP network and if you were not aware of that you could buy trunks from two of the largest SIP trunk providers in the US and actually be running on the same network. Carriers are also very often reliant on the ILEC for fiber and last mile access. Especially in non-metro areas getting diverse last mile access could be impossible or have huge construction costs. It is pretty complicated to ensure that your carriers are really diverse and much harder to ensure that they stay that way. I have many examples of carrier grooming their own primary and backup circuits onto the same L1 path and not realize they have done so. Contractual diversity is a great idea that does not work since the carriers do not actually know what each other’s network looks like. So let’s say that Sprint and CenturyLink choose the same fiber carrier between areas, do you think they would notify each other of that fact? Do you think the fiber carrier would tell them what another customer’s network looks like? You can tell Sprint to not use CenturyLink but there is no way to get both of them not to use the same third party. I suppose you could contractually tell a carrier to avoid xxx cable but I would have little faith that they maintain that over time. I seriously doubt they review all existing contracts when re-grooming their networks. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
I'm of the opinion that, if you need resiliency, you should order explicitly diverse circuits from a primary provider and then a secondary circuit from a second vendor.
Ultimately, If you want contractually-enforced physical diversity then the best options will be single-vendor solutions: Obviously you also want to avoid an unknown single-vendor single-point-of-failure, hence the >secondary provider. Having two vendors is usually a less than optimal solution since neither has visibility into the others' network to ensure the physical diversity required for a truly resilient service: what happens if >an undersea cable is cut, etc?
The cost of such solutions is often unpleasant to justify, mind.
~a
It's easier when you use carriers that provide usable network maps on their web site. Less guess work. When I got a Windstream wave, I got a PDF that was the device CLLI and port number of each device in the path A - Z. Obviously they could change it without informing me of the new path, but I at least know at order it's different and can ask for details when there are outages or latency changes that indicate a change in path. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Naslund" <SNaslund@medline.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 11:33:43 AM Subject: RE: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea) All true but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine if a provider is using another providers infrastructure (all are at some level). For example, in the SIP world there are several national level carriers that are using Level 3s core SIP network and if you were not aware of that you could buy trunks from two of the largest SIP trunk providers in the US and actually be running on the same network. Carriers are also very often reliant on the ILEC for fiber and last mile access. Especially in non-metro areas getting diverse last mile access could be impossible or have huge construction costs. It is pretty complicated to ensure that your carriers are really diverse and much harder to ensure that they stay that way. I have many examples of carrier grooming their own primary and backup circuits onto the same L1 path and not realize they have done so. Contractual diversity is a great idea that does not work since the carriers do not actually know what each other’s network looks like. So let’s say that Sprint and CenturyLink choose the same fiber carrier between areas, do you think they would notify each other of that fact? Do you think the fiber carrier would tell them what another customer’s network looks like? You can tell Sprint to not use CenturyLink but there is no way to get both of them not to use the same third party. I suppose you could contractually tell a carrier to avoid xxx cable but I would have little faith that they maintain that over time. I seriously doubt they review all existing contracts when re-grooming their networks. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
I'm of the opinion that, if you need resiliency, you should order explicitly diverse circuits from a primary provider and then a secondary circuit from a second vendor.
Ultimately, If you want contractually-enforced physical diversity then the best options will be single-vendor solutions: Obviously you also want to avoid an unknown single-vendor single-point-of-failure, hence the > secondary provider. Having two vendors is usually a less than optimal solution since neither has visibility into the others' network to ensure the physical diversity required for a truly resilient service: what happens if > an undersea cable is cut, etc?
The cost of such solutions is often unpleasant to justify, mind.
~a
You can mitigate some of that by getting contract language in place that says a carrier must maintain the circuit on the specified and agreed pathway, and if it's later discovered that it has been moved, you don't pay for the circuit from the time it was moved until it is restored. It's a nice bit of leverage to make sure they *DO* pay attention when they regroom to avoid surprises. :) On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:53 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
It's easier when you use carriers that provide usable network maps on their web site. Less guess work.
When I got a Windstream wave, I got a PDF that was the device CLLI and port number of each device in the path A - Z. Obviously they could change it without informing me of the new path, but I at least know at order it's different and can ask for details when there are outages or latency changes that indicate a change in path.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Steve Naslund" <SNaslund@medline.com> *To: *nanog@nanog.org *Sent: *Wednesday, January 2, 2019 11:33:43 AM *Subject: *RE: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
All true but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine if a provider is using another providers infrastructure (all are at some level). For example, in the SIP world there are several national level carriers that are using Level 3s core SIP network and if you were not aware of that you could buy trunks from two of the largest SIP trunk providers in the US and actually be running on the same network. Carriers are also very often reliant on the ILEC for fiber and last mile access. Especially in non-metro areas getting diverse last mile access could be impossible or have huge construction costs. It is pretty complicated to ensure that your carriers are really diverse and much harder to ensure that they stay that way. I have many examples of carrier grooming their own primary and backup circuits onto the same L1 path and not realize they have done so.
Contractual diversity is a great idea that does not work since the carriers do not actually know what each other’s network looks like. So let’s say that Sprint and CenturyLink choose the same fiber carrier between areas, do you think they would notify each other of that fact? Do you think the fiber carrier would tell them what another customer’s network looks like? You can tell Sprint to not use CenturyLink but there is no way to get both of them not to use the same third party. I suppose you could contractually tell a carrier to avoid xxx cable but I would have little faith that they maintain that over time. I seriously doubt they review all existing contracts when re-grooming their networks.
Steven Naslund
Chicago IL
I'm of the opinion that, if you need resiliency, you should order explicitly diverse circuits from a primary provider and then a secondary circuit from a second vendor.
Ultimately, If you want contractually-enforced physical diversity then the best options will be single-vendor solutions: Obviously you also want to avoid an unknown single-vendor single-point-of-failure, hence the >secondary provider. Having two vendors is usually a less than optimal solution since neither has visibility into the others' network to ensure the physical diversity required for a truly resilient service: what happens if >an undersea cable is cut, etc?
The cost of such solutions is often unpleasant to justify, mind.
~a
On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 at 22:17, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
You can mitigate some of that by getting contract language in place that says a carrier must maintain the circuit on the specified and agreed pathway, and if it's later discovered that it has been moved, you don't pay for the circuit from the time it was moved until it is restored.
It's a nice bit of leverage to make sure they *DO* pay attention when they regroom to avoid surprises. :)
Who is selling this product? I know SLA compensations on service disruptions is a thing, but there the downside seller is carrying is limited to MRC, that is seller gets higher margin on SLA products than nonSLA, when when outages are factored in. I don't see the business case for the seller in contractual terms you are proposing. The amendment has to make more money for the seller, otherwise there is no point for them to sell it, unless of course the product is unmarketable without the amendment. I would anticipate if this product is available the seller limits downside in the contracts in such way that it will always be profitable to the seller to sell the insurance to you. -- ++ytti
This was a product available from the earliest Bell System days. You could specify a couple of options. One is local path redundancy or diversity - intended to get you to another central office and not use the same cable as another specified circuit. A second option is called avoidance where you could tell the phone company to avoid a certain area. AT&T would let you order a SONET node which guaranteed two different entrances for fiber ring going through at least two different COs, expensive and you pay the install or agree to megalong contract terms for a minimum number of access circuits. As an example, the US Government ordered command and control circuits and explicitly had them avoid major metro areas (that were likely nuclear targets). The deal in practice though is that these options were rarely ordered since whoever orders it pays all the initial construction costs. If you building wants a connection to other than your home CO, you have to pay for all of the plant construction to reach a point where you could catch a cable going that way. As to who is selling it? Almost anyone if you pay for that level of custom engineering. More importantly, can you verify it? The US Government had a deal with AT&T to show them the entire AT&T backhaul network architecture. Not many customers get that level of access. If anything they are going to show you the "lines between cities" type map that we all know has little to do with reality on the ground. Steven Naslund Chicago IL
Who is selling this product? I know SLA compensations on service disruptions is a thing, but there the downside seller is carrying is limited to MRC, that is seller gets higher margin on SLA products than nonSLA, when when outages >are factored in. I don't see the business case for the seller in contractual terms you are proposing. The amendment has to make more money for the seller, otherwise there is no point for them to sell it, unless of course the product >is unmarketable without the amendment. I would anticipate if this product is available the seller limits downside in the contracts in such way that it will always be profitable to the seller to sell the insurance to you.
-- ++ytti
Correct. Its called a grooming clause and you can most certainly ensure you have language in your agreements with the vendor. Restrictions being it needs to be for wavelength or an IRU path which is custom anyhow. Also, KMZs or no business. Period. J~
On 2, Jan 2019, at 2:14 PM, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
You can mitigate some of that by getting contract language in place that says a carrier must maintain the circuit on the specified and agreed pathway, and if it's later discovered that it has been moved, you don't pay for the circuit from the time it was moved until it is restored.
It's a nice bit of leverage to make sure they *DO* pay attention when they regroom to avoid surprises. :)
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 12:53 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: It's easier when you use carriers that provide usable network maps on their web site. Less guess work.
When I got a Windstream wave, I got a PDF that was the device CLLI and port number of each device in the path A - Z. Obviously they could change it without informing me of the new path, but I at least know at order it's different and can ask for details when there are outages or latency changes that indicate a change in path.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
From: "Steve Naslund" <SNaslund@medline.com <mailto:SNaslund@medline.com>> To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 11:33:43 AM Subject: RE: How to choose a transport(terrestrial/subsea)
All true but it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine if a provider is using another providers infrastructure (all are at some level). For example, in the SIP world there are several national level carriers that are using Level 3s core SIP network and if you were not aware of that you could buy trunks from two of the largest SIP trunk providers in the US and actually be running on the same network. Carriers are also very often reliant on the ILEC for fiber and last mile access. Especially in non-metro areas getting diverse last mile access could be impossible or have huge construction costs. It is pretty complicated to ensure that your carriers are really diverse and much harder to ensure that they stay that way. I have many examples of carrier grooming their own primary and backup circuits onto the same L1 path and not realize they have done so.
Contractual diversity is a great idea that does not work since the carriers do not actually know what each other’s network looks like. So let’s say that Sprint and CenturyLink choose the same fiber carrier between areas, do you think they would notify each other of that fact? Do you think the fiber carrier would tell them what another customer’s network looks like? You can tell Sprint to not use CenturyLink but there is no way to get both of them not to use the same third party. I suppose you could contractually tell a carrier to avoid xxx cable but I would have little faith that they maintain that over time. I seriously doubt they review all existing contracts when re-grooming their networks.
Steven Naslund
Chicago IL
I'm of the opinion that, if you need resiliency, you should order explicitly diverse circuits from a primary provider and then a secondary circuit from a second vendor.
Ultimately, If you want contractually-enforced physical diversity then the best options will be single-vendor solutions: Obviously you also want to avoid an unknown single-vendor single-point-of-failure, hence the >secondary provider. Having two vendors is usually a less than optimal solution since neither has visibility into the others' network to ensure the physical diversity required for a truly resilient service: what happens if >an undersea cable is cut, etc?
The cost of such solutions is often unpleasant to justify, mind.
~a
participants (14)
-
Alfie Pates -
Ben Cannon -
Brandon Martin -
Eric Dugas -
James Breeden -
Jason Bothe -
Luke Guillory -
Mark Tinka -
Mehmet Akcin -
Mike Hammett -
Naslund, Steve -
Rod Beck -
Saku Ytti -
Tom Beecher