---Original message---- Maybe not an appropriate topic for Nanog... but... it is becoming a sad fact that the clue level of 'internet engineers' is going down. Christian -------------------- That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to through "newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers. CF
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level. On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Chris Flores wrote:
That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to through "newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers.
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated? Charles
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Chris Flores wrote:
That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to through "newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers.
In my opinion, EVERY junior engineer should spend some time in the NOC under the guidance of more Senior Engineers before moving on in the organization. And those Senior Engineers should have a program in which these junior engineers must go through before allowing them to interface with other ISP's to troubleshoot problems. If you know the tools that they need, then put them in a position to succeed. And remember most of all, that it's not beneath you to nurture and mentor people. --------------------------- Marcellus Smith Manager - Peering and Field Operations Cable and Wireless USA Phone:(703) 715-7191 email: marcellus@cw.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Charles Sprickman Sent: Saturday, August 21, 1999 2:03 PM To: fulton@uit.org Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: FW: Tech contact for Qwest? On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Chris Flores wrote:
That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated? Charles through
"newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers.
At 02:43 PM 8/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
In my opinion, EVERY junior engineer should spend some time in the NOC under the guidance of more Senior Engineers before moving on in the organization.
I think today most are a little too liberal with the term engineer. Those of us who went the traditional route of education and earned the title as an ME, EE or CE sometimes bristle that we're lumped in with the guy who just passed his CNE from the books. In ten years with my degree, I always reflect on what the dean of the College of Engineering said in his closing statements before we graduated: "The purpose of Engineering School is not to memorize formulas, tables and charts. The purpose of Engineering School is to teach you how to think." And that we did. I have a BSEE. I don't do any circuit design or power system design. However, every day I use the same skills I learned then. Break it down into manageable pieces. Solve each piece. If it isn't manageable or solvable, loop until you get it into managable chunks. Some would argue we should be a little more judicious in the application of the term Engineer, especially for the 18-22 y/o folks hired off the street with no prior NOC and/or network experience. Actually, in some states, its a legal title. In the Professional Engineer certification system, one doesn't even sit for the exam until one has spent at least five years as an EIT, or Engineer-in-training, an 8 hour comprehensive exam where EVERYTHING you could possibly have remotely looked at in your education is fair game. As an EE, I had loads of fun remembering Statics and Dynamics from four years earlier, or Thermodynamics from Freshman Physics. Maybe its time we had something like that in the network world, more than the 6 tests and you're in club that is the CNE/MCSE program ... Maybe then "engineers" would heed the warnings of their software vendors about loading code on their frame switches.
And those Senior Engineers should have a program in which these junior engineers must go through before allowing them to interface with other ISP's to troubleshoot problems. If you know the tools that they need, then put them in a position to succeed. And remember most of all, that it's not beneath you to nurture and mentor people.
--------------------------- Marcellus Smith Manager - Peering and Field Operations Cable and Wireless USA Phone:(703) 715-7191 email: marcellus@cw.net
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Charles Sprickman Sent: Saturday, August 21, 1999 2:03 PM To: fulton@uit.org Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: FW: Tech contact for Qwest?
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated?
Charles
That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Chris Flores wrote: through
"newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers.
========================================================================== Eric Germann CCTec ekgermann@cctec.com Van Wert, OH 45891 http://www.cctec.com Ph: 419 968 2640 ICQ: 41927048 Fax: 419 968 2641 Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services A Microsoft Solution Provider
I agree. The term 'Engineer' is used much to liberally. After 4 years of Communications in the Army, I was 24 years old as a Freshman in College. I knew how to think and analyze, but I needed to add structure to my ability. To have a process for troubleshooting, it didn't matter if I was working on router problems or a diagramming football plays, I wanted to do research and develop concise analysis skills and then be able to convey my findings to someone else. And this what engineering school did for me. I think a big part of being an Engineer is being a subject matter expert as well. Wouldn't you agree? But if you don't know how to explain what you've learned to someone else, then you're the only one it can benefit. What good is that? I have worked with intelligent people over the years, but ask them to explain something or whiteboard it for you. LOOK OUT! I don't know about any one else, but when I can explain something to someone and help them to understand it, then I get a kick out of that. And if alot of other 'Engineers' would do the same thing then we wouldn't have as many 'Figure-head' Engineers. --------------------------- Marcellus Smith Manager - Peering and Field Operations Cable and Wireless USA Phone:(703) 715-7191 email: marcellus@cw.net
There is one problem for the TELCOM and ISP here. You can't hire an high-quality engeneer as the phone-support staff; on the other hand, you sometimes need such engeneer to answer a very complex question from the customer. If you know how to provide CCIE ingeneer with such offer - welcome, I do not know. The only solution I know is to have some development or design branch and to have some kind of _support duty_ (once a week, for example) for the people from this branch. If you offer an support work for the CCIE engeneer (for example) - I do not think you could pick up any for the any salary (may be I am wrong but it's often when the salary is not the only think the people are thinking about)... And this (IP) service is new for the TELCO, and they have a very high hierarchy structure - and this prevent their customer from any contacts from their high-skilled engeneers. The bigger is your ISP, the less chance you have to get high-skilled support for your troubles (except if you are the Bill Gates yourself and they treat you as a VIP customer). On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:03:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Sprickman <spork@inch.com> To: fulton@uit.org Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: FW: Tech contact for Qwest?
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated?
Charles
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Chris Flores wrote:
That's a fairly strong statement to make. Large telcos/ISPs tend to through "newbie" engineers into situations where a experienced or senior engineer belongs. Let's face facts - there are not enough IP engineers/technicians to fill all the needed positions. Companies need to either have more peer review or expect the "clueless" attitude toward customers. No one could expect a entry level engineer to handle complex ISP BGP issues when they barely understand VLSM/CIDR. The industry is much larger than previous years(obvious), thus more entry level engineers.
Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 230-41-41, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
At 14:03 8/21/99 -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated?
Here's a perfect example of the "Piece of paper means nothing" scenario: I was on a system deployment today for a national funeral home chain. After working with their tech support guy to get the router configured the way they wanted it, he told me I needed a crossover cable to connect it to the hub. I disagreed and suggested we at least try to use the normal RJ-45 I had in my hand. That got me kicked up one level to another tech who told me that the previous tech "had a college degree and is our expert, so go get a crossover cable". Again, I balked and wanted to at least try to connect using the cable in my hands. That got me bumped up again several times, eventually coming to the Vice President in charge of the deployment who told me "we've got certified experts who say you need that cable so go get it!". (Anyone see this coming?). I got the cable - and of course it didn't work. The normal cable did (DUH!). So I had 3 "certified" "experts" and a "college degree" who told me that I needed something that I didn't - and refused to even *try* it my way; and were wrong. "NSI and ICANN - on the next Springer!" Dean Robb Owner, PC-EASY (757) 495-EASY [3279] On-site computer repairs, upgrades and consultations Senior Reviewer, WWW.TheGamers.Net - an IEN affiliate.
College degree in what, Asian studies? Even a CS degree won't help you with cables. Every engineer should know when to rely on the technician. I learned that a long time ago in the electronics business. As for your situation, you stood there and just insisted instead of going through the pinouts with those who disagree. Escalation of the conflict is poor interpersonal relations. Patient explanation to show them why you are right would hae taken less of your time than all the pushing and left you with happier customers and colleagues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Robb <pceasy@norfolk.infi.net> To: Charles Sprickman <spork@inch.com> Cc: <fulton@uit.org>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 8:01 PM Subject: Re: FW: Tech contact for Qwest?
At 14:03 8/21/99 -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated?
Here's a perfect example of the "Piece of paper means nothing" scenario:
I was on a system deployment today for a national funeral home chain. After working with their tech support guy to get the router configured the way they wanted it, he told me I needed a crossover cable to connect it to the hub. I disagreed and suggested we at least try to use the normal RJ-45 I had in my hand. That got me kicked up one level to another tech who told me that the previous tech "had a college degree and is our expert, so go get a crossover cable". Again, I balked and wanted to at least try to connect using the cable in my hands. That got me bumped up again several times, eventually coming to the Vice President in charge of the deployment who told me "we've got certified experts who say you need that cable so go get it!".
(Anyone see this coming?). I got the cable - and of course it didn't work. The normal cable did (DUH!).
So I had 3 "certified" "experts" and a "college degree" who told me that I needed something that I didn't - and refused to even *try* it my way; and were wrong.
"NSI and ICANN - on the next Springer!"
Dean Robb Owner, PC-EASY (757) 495-EASY [3279] On-site computer repairs, upgrades and consultations Senior Reviewer, WWW.TheGamers.Net - an IEN affiliate.
Why'd you have to ask the tech in the first place whether to use a straight thru or crossover? Not like you're gonna smoke the hub using the one in your hand if you'd try it ... Somethings wrong on both ends if putting a 10BaseT cable between a hub and router requires a VP's signoff. Eric At 08:01 PM 8/24/99 -0400, Dean Robb wrote:
At 14:03 8/21/99 -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 fulton@uit.org wrote:
Perhaps if we can get the "higher-ups" to stop hiring noc newbies based on certs and begin hiring based on raw intelligence...then maybe we can get the overall clue factor back to a reasonable level.
That's true I think. Most of the people I ask questions of posess neither a CCIE nor a comp-sci degree. Some do, but not enough to convince me that real-world experience and contact with knowledgeable people isn't a valid "education". How many folks here that consider themselves a "leader" in net ops at their place of employ were formally educated?
Here's a perfect example of the "Piece of paper means nothing" scenario:
I was on a system deployment today for a national funeral home chain. After working with their tech support guy to get the router configured the way they wanted it, he told me I needed a crossover cable to connect it to the hub. I disagreed and suggested we at least try to use the normal RJ-45 I had in my hand. That got me kicked up one level to another tech who told me that the previous tech "had a college degree and is our expert, so go get a crossover cable". Again, I balked and wanted to at least try to connect using the cable in my hands. That got me bumped up again several times, eventually coming to the Vice President in charge of the deployment who told me "we've got certified experts who say you need that cable so go get it!".
(Anyone see this coming?). I got the cable - and of course it didn't work. The normal cable did (DUH!).
So I had 3 "certified" "experts" and a "college degree" who told me that I needed something that I didn't - and refused to even *try* it my way; and were wrong.
"NSI and ICANN - on the next Springer!"
Dean Robb Owner, PC-EASY (757) 495-EASY [3279] On-site computer repairs, upgrades and consultations Senior Reviewer, WWW.TheGamers.Net - an IEN affiliate.
========================================================================== Eric Germann CCTec ekgermann@cctec.com Van Wert, OH 45891 http://www.cctec.com Ph: 419 968 2640 ICQ: 41927048 Fax: 419 968 2641 Network Design, Connectivity & System Integration Services A Microsoft Solution Provider
participants (8)
-
Alex P. Rudnev -
Charles Sprickman -
Chris Flores -
Dana Hudes -
Dean Robb -
Eric Germann -
fulton＠uit.org -
Marcellus Smith