I just paid way too much from Hilco Streambank on Auction. I think I ended up spending about $2500 + ARIN fees (but I really needed it). www.ipv4auctions.com Christopher Dye Chief Technology Officer Paragon Solutions Group, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Orsini Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:22 PM To: Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com>; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Best Source for ARIN Region /24 Ditto here. Seems like Matthew beat me to the question Regards, Ray Orsini – CEO Orsini IT, LLC – Technology Consultants VOICE DATA  BANDWIDTH  SECURITY  SUPPORT P: 305.967.6756 x1009 E: ray@orsiniit.com TF: 844.OIT.VOIP 7900 NW 155th Street, Suite 103, Miami Lakes, FL 33016 http://www.orsiniit.com | View My Calendar | View/Pay Your Invoices | View Your Tickets -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Matthew D. Hardeman Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 2:19 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Best Source for ARIN Region /24 I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

Note that ARIN has a list of "Registered Transfer Facilitators" at: https://www.arin.net/resources/transfer_listing/facilitator_list.html I've just started look into buying a /20. So far, Hilco Streambank auction prices seemed better than the two other facilitators I have communicated with. If this whole topic is off target for this list, off list responses would be welcome..., also pointers to any other appropriate forum. Thanks, Brough Brough Turner netBlazr Inc. – Free your Broadband! Mobile: 617-285-0433 Skype: brough netBlazr Inc. <http://www.netblazr.com/> | Google+ <https://plus.google.com/102447512447094746687/posts?hl=en> | Twitter <https://twitter.com/#%21/brough> | LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/broughturner> | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/brough.turner> | Blog <http://blogs.broughturner.com/> | Personal website <http://broughturner.com/> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Christopher Dye <chris.dye@paragon.net> wrote:

I just paid way too much from Hilco Streambank on Auction. I think I ended up spending about $2500 + ARIN fees (but I really needed it). www.ipv4auctions.com

Christopher Dye Chief Technology Officer Paragon Solutions Group, Inc.

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ray Orsini Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:22 PM To: Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com>; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

Ditto here. Seems like Matthew beat me to the question

Regards, Ray Orsini – CEO Orsini IT, LLC – Technology Consultants VOICE DATA  BANDWIDTH  SECURITY  SUPPORT P: 305.967.6756 x1009 E: ray@orsiniit.com TF: 844.OIT.VOIP 7900 NW 155th Street, Suite 103, Miami Lakes, FL 33016 http://www.orsiniit.com | View My Calendar | View/Pay Your Invoices | View Your Tickets

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Matthew D. Hardeman Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 2:19 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

If you aren't advised to at least analyze the potential to avoid buying and using v6, you'd be getting bad advice. With that said: For large blocks, >/16, you're going to want to work with a *reputable* broker that understands how the market works. The two I am consistent in pointing to are Addrex and Hilco Streambank. They seem to be both reputable and knowledgeable. There are many others. You can speak with each if necessary and ask about experiences. Being registered with an RIR is not a requirement to participate in the market as a broker. For the smallish blocks, < /16, I'd point to the Hilco auction platform. Appears to be able to process small transactions reliably and you can price track with the public data. And it's automated. There are pitfalls when acquiring IPv4 addresses, including whether you want them to be assets or to be leases. The regions are treating legacy addresses and transfers differently. V4 addresses are usable globally and there are enough people here as well as broker knowledge to help you navigate that as well. Brokers can guide you through these decisions and which markets to acquire them in based on your needs and objectives, which RIRs to work with and how to transfer addresses. I've been recommending folks avoid transferring space from friends. Failed transactions can be costly in many ways. YMMV. Best, -M< On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> wrote:

I also am interested in where people are finding blocks of /22 or smaller just in case. We have some blocks from Level 3, but eventually, we're going to be out.

That being said, we did get our IPv6 /32 allocation from ARIN. If anyone has any ideas on how to properly deploy this in an ISP environment, I'd love to learn. I've read some whitepapers on the subject, but most of those deal with enterprise based networks, and not so much as a service provider.

Kind Regards, Shon Elliott, KK6TOO unWired Broadband, Inc. www.getunwired.com

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 12:11 PM To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

Some expansions under my ISP hat may lead to needing some address space, so I'd be interested in where people are getting space from as well. Smaller blocks, though, /22 and smaller.

----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Matthew D. Hardeman" <mhardeman@ipifony.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:19:00 PM Subject: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

On Mon 2016-Jan-11 20:16:21 +0000, Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> wrote:

I also am interested in where people are finding blocks of /22 or smaller just in case. We have some blocks from Level 3, but eventually, we're going to be out.

That being said, we did get our IPv6 /32 allocation from ARIN. If anyone has any ideas on how to properly deploy this in an ISP environment, I'd love to learn. I've read some whitepapers on the subject, but most of those deal with enterprise based networks, and not so much as a service provider.

Probably others as well, but afaik RIPE NCC's courses are targeting the SP side a bit more to start getting your feet wet: https://www.ripe.net/support/training/courses/ipv6/outline https://www.ripe.net/support/training/courses/advanced-ipv6/outline How that interacts with your particular equipment etc. is a bigger question...

Kind Regards, Shon Elliott, KK6TOO unWired Broadband, Inc. www.getunwired.com

-- Hugo hugo@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber PGP fingerprint (B178313E): CF18 15FA 9FE4 0CD1 2319 1D77 9AB1 0FFD B178 313E (also on Signal)

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 12:11 PM To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

Some expansions under my ISP hat may lead to needing some address space, so I'd be interested in where people are getting space from as well. Smaller blocks, though, /22 and smaller.

----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Matthew D. Hardeman" <mhardeman@ipifony.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:19:00 PM Subject: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

Apologies; I had looked at some of the NCC's online material and got stuck in the "it's all online these days, right?" bubble... Excuse the noise... -- Hugo hugo@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber also on Signal ---- From: Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> -- Sent: 2016-01-11 - 16:34 ----

Hi Hugo,

Thanks for the response to the IPv6 part of my e-mail. Unfortunately, I don't think our company will send anyone to London for training. I would hope that there would be something in the United States that would be available. I know the IPv6 basics, just not real plan on deploying it on a service provider network.

Kind Regards, Shon Elliott, KK6TOO unWired Broadband, Inc. www.getunwired.com

-----Original Message----- From: Hugo Slabbert [mailto:hugo@slabnet.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 4:21 PM To: Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Deploying IPv6 in an ISP network [ was: Best Source for ARIN Region /24 ]

On Mon 2016-Jan-11 20:16:21 +0000, Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> wrote:

...

I also am interested in where people are finding blocks of /22 or smaller just in case. We have some blocks from Level 3, but eventually, we're going to be out.

That being said, we did get our IPv6 /32 allocation from ARIN. If anyone has any ideas on how to properly deploy this in an ISP environment, I'd love to learn. I've read some whitepapers on the subject, but most of those deal with enterprise based networks, and not so much as a service provider.

Probably others as well, but afaik RIPE NCC's courses are targeting the SP side a bit more to start getting your feet wet:

https://www.ripe.net/support/training/courses/ipv6/outline https://www.ripe.net/support/training/courses/advanced-ipv6/outline

How that interacts with your particular equipment etc. is a bigger question...

...

Kind Regards, Shon Elliott, KK6TOO unWired Broadband, Inc. www.getunwired.com

-- Hugo

hugo@slabnet.com: email, xmpp/jabber PGP fingerprint (B178313E): CF18 15FA 9FE4 0CD1 2319 1D77 9AB1 0FFD B178 313E

(also on Signal)

...

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 12:11 PM To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

Some expansions under my ISP hat may lead to needing some address space, so I'd be interested in where people are getting space from as well. Smaller blocks, though, /22 and smaller.

----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Matthew D. Hardeman" <mhardeman@ipifony.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:19:00 PM Subject: Best Source for ARIN Region /24

I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

On Jan 11, 2016, at 16:21 , Hugo Slabbert <hugo@slabnet.com> wrote:

On Mon 2016-Jan-11 20:16:21 +0000, Shon Elliott <selliott@getunwired.com> wrote:

...

I also am interested in where people are finding blocks of /22 or smaller just in case. We have some blocks from Level 3, but eventually, we're going to be out.

That being said, we did get our IPv6 /32 allocation from ARIN. If anyone has any ideas on how to properly deploy this in an ISP environment, I'd love to learn. I've read some whitepapers on the subject, but most of those deal with enterprise based networks, and not so much as a service provider.

Step 1: Figure out what size block you should have requested and go back and get that. Sure, that’s a little bit flip, but I’m actually serious. Most ISPs will need more than a /32 unless they are fairly trivial. Instead of starting from a /32 and figuring out how to squeeze your customers into it, you should start from the number of end-sites you expect to serve from your largest serving site (POP or other aggregation point in your network) in the next, say 5 years. Round that up to a nibble boundary with 25% free. For example, if your largest site has fewer than 192 end-sites served, 8 bits is enough. If you have 192 or more but less than 3072, 12 bits is enough. IF you have a million customers in your largest serving site, you’re looking at 20 bits or more per serving site. Next, figure out the number of serving sites you expect to have in the next 5 years and round that up to a nibble boundary (again with 25% free). So, if you expect to have more than 12, but fewer than 192 serving sites, 8 bits is enough. Fewer than 12, you can get by with 4 bits. From 192-3071, 12 bits. Now, add those two sets of bits together and subtract from 48. That’s your prefix size that you need to ask for. I’m quite certain you can get that size prefix if you’ve done the exercise correctly because that’s exactly how the policy is written. Owen

Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> writes:

Note that 12 is "0b" in hexadecimal.

Only when gravity is negative IIRC. Bjørn

On Jan 12, 2016, at 07:08 , Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you seek information on how to plan subnetting or on more technical issues like how to dual stack your network? In the later case, you would need to tell more about your network. Eg. if you have a MPLS network (like we do) and you have your internet in a L3VPN enabling IPv6 is really easy and has almost no impact on the network.

As an alternative to the plan that Owen describes, I can offer the way we did it: Our IPv6 address plan is tied to our IPv4 addressing, such that there is a mapping from IPv4 address to IPv6 /48 prefix. That way we do not need to allocate IPv6 as such.

How do you expect that to work out when you have customers without IPv4 addresses or once you start having to share IPv4 addresses among customers?

The mapping is a database with IPv4 /24 as key and IPv6 /40 as value. Example:

85.204.120.0/24 maps to 2a00:7660:500::/40.

Take the user with the IPv4 address 85.204.120.12. This address maps to 2a00:7660:50b::/48. Note that 12 is "0b" in hexadecimal.

We are an eyeball network where most users have only one single IPv4 address. We assign the IPv4 addresses statically (never changes). A few users bought extra IPv4 address and that creates a hole in our address plan, but we do not care. Officially the extra /48 is not assigned to the user, because that would be against the rules.

Our address plan creates a very efficient allocation scheme, that is not strictly needed as you have the more loose ARIN rules (we are in RIPE).

Your address plan ties your future to your legacy technology that you should be looking forward to deprecating and places limitations on your future addressing that are coupled to the shortcomings of the legacy addressing capabilities. I encourage my competitors to attempt this strategy. Owen

On Jan 12, 2016, at 10:44 , Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12 January 2016 at 19:03, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:

...

...

As an alternative to the plan that Owen describes, I can offer the way we did it: Our IPv6 address plan is tied to our IPv4 addressing, such that there is a mapping from IPv4 address to IPv6 /48 prefix. That way we do not need to allocate IPv6 as such.

How do you expect that to work out when you have customers without IPv4 addresses or once you start having to share IPv4 addresses among customers?

I fear I will be retired before the first happens. As to the second, even with CGN they will have an internal IPv4 that can be used for the mapping.

Sure, there are ways to work around whatever you need.

Please also take notice that there is nothing that prevents you from reversing the mapping: assign /48 to customers and then calculate the IPv4 from that. The point here is just that you do not really need to do the work twice.

OK… Now you’ve got a customer that has their own internal network serving a campus with 12 buildings and also they have a WAN connecting 18 remote sites. All of this is behind NAT with a single IPv4 from you. How do you give them the 30 /48s that they should be receiving for that network with your current scheme?

The limitation of the system is that it requires a dense scheme for allocating /48 to customers. Unfortunately that is already a requirement in RIPE land, so it does not add something new.

Actuallly, it isn’t. You can use a sparse allocation scheme in RIPE land, but in all RIRs, the only limitation is that you don’t get more space until your sparse scheme gets relatively densely packed. Thats intentional and it’s not a bad thing.

...

Your address plan ties your future to your legacy technology that you should be looking forward to deprecating and places limitations on your future addressing that are coupled to the shortcomings of the legacy addressing capabilities.

I would say it saves you from doing a lot of work. It will be a long time before you can skip the IPv4 part entirely and just do IPv6. The exception being if you use certain transition technologies that tunnels IPv4 on top of an IPv6 only network, in which case I would probably do something different (or maybe not). My scheme works for our network, which uses L3VPN and MPLS.

I expect it will be about 4 years before we start seeing eyeball networks discontinuing support for IPv4 or at least charging a premium for it. There are already a growing number of networks that are, in fact, providing IPv4 only as a tunnel over IPv6.

...

I encourage my competitors to attempt this strategy.

I do not believe we have ever been competitors…

We haven’t. I didn’t say I was encouraging you to attempt this strategy. I did say that I believe my competitors applying this strategy would work out in my favor. Owen

Makes sense. In that case, I think only way out is to go through a broker to find a suitable party for a transfer. I would read the rules and regulations regarding transfer of ARIN blocks, they have some details and the process requires some paperwork. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com> wrote:

I’m aware of the /24 block for facilitation concept, but my client’s use case can qualify as an end-user rather than as an ISP, thus their annual operating cost is smaller than even the X-SMALL ISP category, which they’d land in — if they opted for the smaller /36 initial IPv6 direct allocation, rather than the default /32 direct allocation.

That seems to balance toward buying an existing /24.

On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:00 PM, Rafael Possamai <rafaelpossa@gmail.com> wrote:

If you apply for an IPv6 block, as an ISP, and you have the intention of truly utilizing it, then you can apply for a /24 to facilitate that transition.

It will cost you about $1500 or so, which is about half of what a /24 is going for in the transfer market.

Thing is, if you take the IPv6 block just to use the /24 they give you, then one could argue you are cheating the system.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Matthew D. Hardeman < mhardeman@ipifony.com> wrote:

...

I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

As an end user, you can get an IPv6 /48 and still qualify for the /24 of transitional space as well. Owen

On Jan 11, 2016, at 18:35 , Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com> wrote:

I’m aware of the /24 block for facilitation concept, but my client’s use case can qualify as an end-user rather than as an ISP, thus their annual operating cost is smaller than even the X-SMALL ISP category, which they’d land in — if they opted for the smaller /36 initial IPv6 direct allocation, rather than the default /32 direct allocation.

That seems to balance toward buying an existing /24.

...

On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:00 PM, Rafael Possamai <rafaelpossa@gmail.com> wrote:

If you apply for an IPv6 block, as an ISP, and you have the intention of truly utilizing it, then you can apply for a /24 to facilitate that transition.

It will cost you about $1500 or so, which is about half of what a /24 is going for in the transfer market.

Thing is, if you take the IPv6 block just to use the /24 they give you, then one could argue you are cheating the system.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com <mailto:mhardeman@ipifony.com>> wrote: I’m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

The held back a /10 from their final /8 allocation. Details @ https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four10 . -- Regards, Jake Mertel Ubiquity Hosting Web: https://www.ubiquityhosting.com Phone (direct): 1-480-478-1510 Mail: 5350 East High Street, Suite 300, Phoenix, AZ 85054 On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:54:49AM -0800, Owen DeLong wrote:

...

As an end user, you can get an IPv6 /48 and still qualify for the /24 of transitional space as well.

did ARIN hold back some blocks to service the 'transitional space', or would that be going to the STLS list?

--jim

...

Owen

...

On Jan 11, 2016, at 18:35 , Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com> wrote:

I???m aware of the /24 block for facilitation concept, but my client???s use case can qualify as an end-user rather than as an ISP, thus their annual operating cost is smaller than even the X-SMALL ISP category, which they???d land in ??? if they opted for the smaller /36 initial IPv6 direct allocation, rather than the default /32 direct allocation.

That seems to balance toward buying an existing /24.

...

On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:00 PM, Rafael Possamai <rafaelpossa@gmail.com> wrote:

If you apply for an IPv6 block, as an ISP, and you have the intention of truly utilizing it, then you can apply for a /24 to facilitate that transition.

It will cost you about $1500 or so, which is about half of what a /24 is going for in the transfer market.

Thing is, if you take the IPv6 block just to use the /24 they give you, then one could argue you are cheating the system.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Matthew D. Hardeman <mhardeman@ipifony.com <mailto:mhardeman@ipifony.com>> wrote: I???m looking to buy a /24 of space for a new multi-homed network in the ARIN region. Can anyone out there speak to going rates for a /24 and best places to shop?

-- Jim Mercer Reptilian Research jim@reptiles.org +1 416 410-5633

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" -- Hunter S. Thompson