At 10:07 AM 3/9/97 -0500, Golan Ben-Oni wrote:
Next time you rent a car, when you finish driving over the things that can kill your tires. Just yell to the guy 'Possession is 9/10'th of the law' and never come back.
Only, they've got signed paperwork which encourages you to return the rental when you're not using it.
And pay for damages. ;-) - paul
More than a few people have hoarded, sold, and exchanged Class Bs for profit. Such exchanges should be given the same value as the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge and lunar land parcels. The result of a few gaining money for B space has been to encourage people to horde it. -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 09:38:37 CST/CDT 03/09/97 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Demand vs. Supply, this sounds like a 3rd grade economics class. This is no longer a couple of colleges with a bunch of grad students folks. This is a worldwide business (no matter how much me, you, or anyone else would like it be something else) and people are here to make a dollar. If I can makea few bucks (or a hell of a lot of bucks) by selling space that is mine to do with as I please.. so be it. On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Joseph T. Klein wrote:
More than a few people have hoarded, sold, and exchanged Class Bs for profit. Such exchanges should be given the same value as the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge and lunar land parcels.
The result of a few gaining money for B space has been to encourage people to horde it. -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 09:38:37 CST/CDT 03/09/97
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
My point is ... If the transfers are not honored then they will have no value. The crunch in IP space can be drastically reduced if the horded addressed where returned to the pool for use by those that need them. It is not yours. Anyone who sells IP addresses is committing fraud. Sell the deed to the moon and you land in jail. OK who owned it? The administrative contact, the technical contact? If I am an administrator for XYZ corp and I sell XYZ's unused class B to ABC corp for $10K ... have I embezzled $10K worth of assets from XYZ? When the lawers get wind of this we are all in it deep. You are treading on very shaky ground. Your free market sounds more like anarchy. Commerce can not function without law. This line of reasoning based on "anarchist economics" will bring the whole structure down on all of us. Catch 22 - If you sell it, you don't need it. You don't need it it goes back to the numbering authority. Since the original user of the IP address did not pay for it, how can they claim to own it? Quid Pro Quo! --- On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:07:38 -0600 (CST) "Brett L. Hawn" <blh@nol.net> wrote:
Demand vs. Supply, this sounds like a 3rd grade economics class. This is no longer a couple of colleges with a bunch of grad students folks. This is a worldwide business (no matter how much me, you, or anyone else would like it be something else) and people are here to make a dollar. If I can makea few bucks (or a hell of a lot of bucks) by selling space that is mine to do with as I please.. so be it.
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Joseph T. Klein wrote:
More than a few people have hoarded, sold, and exchanged Class Bs for profit. Such exchanges should be given the same value as the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge and lunar land parcels.
The result of a few gaining money for B space has been to encourage people to horde it. -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 09:38:37 CST/CDT 03/09/97
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
---------------End of Original Message----------------- -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 20:08:13 CST/CDT 03/09/97 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Hi,
If the transfers are not honored then they will have no value.
True. For address space to have value on the Internet it must be a) globally unique b) accepted for routing by an Internet service provider Requirement (a) is met by any address allocated by any of the registries, regardless of whether the registration information corresponds to reality or not. Requirement (b) is where things get interesting.
The crunch in IP space can be drastically reduced if the horded addressed where returned to the pool for use by those that need them.
1) what IP space "crunch"? 2) what incentive do you propose to give to encourage people to return address space to the pool of "usable" addresses? Given that they have not done so already, it is safe to assume "for the good of the Internet" is not sufficient.
Commerce can not function without law.
Nit: commerce functions quite well without law (as any drug dealer will tell you). It does however need a consensus of behaviors among buyers and sellers, although those behaviors need not to conform to those of the rest of "society"... Regards, -drc
This is only a NANOG matter in that the trade in address space can be seen as undermining those who legitimately request CIDR blocks and then spend the time to justify them and SWIP the addresses. Not to beat this into the ground ...
1) what IP space "crunch"?
Addresess are harder to get then they where in 1990. You could (and many people did) ask for a class B and get it with little or no hassle. I know people who did it and held on to unused class Bs based on speculation that they could sell them. $10K is a good return on some e-mail sent seven years ago.
2) what incentive do you propose to give to encourage people to return address space to the pool of "usable" addresses? Given that they have not done so already, it is safe to assume "for the good of the Internet" is not sufficient.
If I can not sell it, I don't need it and it costs me money, why keep it? Most of the IP address speculators will give them up if annual fees are assessed for allocated address space and they can not transfer them. I suspect a large number of organizations would then have the incentive to move to proxies and addresses per RFC 1918 http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc1918.txt
Commerce can not function without law.
Nit: commerce functions quite well without law (as any drug dealer will tell you). It does however need a consensus of behaviors among buyers and sellers, although those behaviors need not to conform to those of the rest of "society"...
Regards, -drc
Point Taken. I was taking a rather Hamiltonian approach with my argument and it has some flaws. I should have replace law with consensus ... a more Jeffersonian view. Laws do not function with out the consensus of the governed; nor do rules of commerce without a consensus within the given market. What is the InterNIC policy on the sale of class Bs? -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 22:10:20 CST/CDT 03/09/97 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
What is the InterNIC policy on the sale of class Bs? -- From: Joseph T. Klein, Titania Corporation http://www.titania.net E-mail: jtk@titania.net Sent: 22:10:20 CST/CDT 03/09/97
The InterNIC's policy is what's stated in rFC2050. An organization must justify the utilization efficiency of address space. They need to justify it whether they request it from a regional registry, whether they buy it or whether they received it for Xmas. The way I look at it is, an organization received address space because of information they listed on an IP template. They had a requirement for this amount of IP numbers. Even if they received it long ago when it was easier to get addresses, they still had to show some kind of requirement. If they no longer have a requirement for the address, they should return it. Yes, I know many (David and Geoff:-)) are probably calling me Pollyanna right about now and it is true that most companies won't return it if they think they can sell it. But I think having a procedure in place to at least begin reclaiming addresses from those organizations that are no longer in business can only help matters. Kim
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Kim Hubbard wrote:
Yes, I know many (David and Geoff:-)) are probably calling me Pollyanna right about now and it is true that most companies won't return it if they think they can sell it. But I think having a procedure in place to at least begin reclaiming addresses from those organizations that are no longer in business can only help matters.
Kim
So tell me, what exactly is stopping you from doing so and why wasn't this started one hell of a long time ago? Or are we just hearing more of the typical rhetoric we've come to expect from the Nic. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Kim Hubbard wrote:
Yes, I know many (David and Geoff:-)) are probably calling me Pollyanna right about now and it is true that most companies won't return it if they think they can sell it. But I think having a procedure in place to at least begin reclaiming addresses from those organizations that are no longer in business can only help matters.
Kim
So tell me, what exactly is stopping you from doing so and why wasn't this started one hell of a long time ago? Or are we just hearing more of the typical rhetoric we've come to expect from the Nic.
There is a procedure in place and it has been used to great effect. The last time the space was "exercised" to recover space, we recovered about 13% of the total available IPv4 space. That was in 1995. There are plans underway to re-exercise the process to see what can be done wrt the TWD. I expect that this time the effort will be directed to reducing the routing table size and not so much recovery of IP space. Check the 1995 NANOG archives and the IEPG archives. --bill
Yes, I know many (David and Geoff:-)) are probably calling me Pollyanna right about now and it is true that most companies won't return it if they think they can sell it. But I think having a procedure in place to at least begin reclaiming addresses from those organizations that are no longer in business can only help matters.
I personally oversaw the return of four /16's recently, so I, at least, do not consider this to be Pollyannaism.
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Paul A Vixie wrote:
Yes, I know many (David and Geoff:-)) are probably calling me Pollyanna right about now and it is true that most companies won't return it if they think they can sell it. But I think having a procedure in place to at least begin reclaiming addresses from those organizations that are no longer in business can only help matters.
I personally oversaw the return of four /16's recently, so I, at least, do not consider this to be Pollyannaism.
When I returned an ASN 2 months ago to RIPE, I asked what the procedure was to deallocate an AS object and return it to the pool of available numbers. I was told there was no procedure since I was the first. :-) Hank Nussbacher
I personally oversaw the return of four /16's recently, so I, at least, do not consider this to be Pollyannaism.
When I returned an ASN 2 months ago to RIPE, I asked what the procedure was to deallocate an AS object and return it to the pool of available numbers. I was told there was no procedure since I was the first. :-)
Hank Nussbacher
Not quite the same thing and not the same registries Hank. Check the PIER wg archives. There is a method to return IPv4 prefixes. ASN return is a bit different but does work with InterNIC. -- --bill
participants (8)
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bmanning＠ISI.EDU -
Brett L. Hawn -
David R. Conrad -
Hank Nussbacher -
Joseph T. Klein -
Kim Hubbard -
Paul A Vixie -
Paul Ferguson