I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted the form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process? -Andy Ellifson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted the form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
You're seriously arguing that the customer should get special consideration because they don't have time to put together and present the required documentation necessary for ARIN to determine that an allocation is justified? Talk about chutzpah... Re: SWIPs. Your question was a bit vague, but if you're asking if the address space your customer is currently using needs to be SWIPed to them (or demonstrated in some sort of public WHOIS database), yes. If you're referring to something else, you'll have to be more detailed in your question. /david
Have them setup an rwhois server. That's how we proved allocation. On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:49:31PM -0700, Andy Ellifson wrote:
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted the form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Marius Strom <marius@marius.org> Professional Geek/Unix System Administrator URL: http://www.marius.org/ http://www.marius.org/marius.pgp 0xF5D89089 *updated 2001-02-26* It is a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back and so, here we are, victims of mathematics. -- Londo, "A Voice in the Wilderness I"
I suspect this is a troll. However, I'll take the bait... Why should this organization get any sort of special treatment? Because they have been too slack to properly SWIP their blocks? Because they don't feel like submitting the proper documentation? You posit that the customer genuinely needs the address space. How do we, as an Internet community discover that? The only way is documentation. I find it rather hard to believe that an organization without an AS, qualifies for a /18, based on the published criteria - they did take the time to read those, right? Andy, you request help to circumvent a process that is far from perfect, yet is our best hedge against the unscrupulous. I suppose the best advise for them is to hire a consultant who is fully conversant in the procedures for obtaining address spaces and an AS number. That's their best bet. - Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Getting an AS and /18
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted the form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
So re-reading Andy's post, I think people have misread it - he doesn't appear to be asking for help in circumventing ARIN's procedures, he wants help in following it, if one notes the actual questions he asks:
Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space?
Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
But that's just my take on it. On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Daniel Golding wrote:
I suspect this is a troll. However, I'll take the bait...
Why should this organization get any sort of special treatment? Because they have been too slack to properly SWIP their blocks? Because they don't feel like submitting the proper documentation?
You posit that the customer genuinely needs the address space. How do we, as an Internet community discover that? The only way is documentation.
I find it rather hard to believe that an organization without an AS, qualifies for a /18, based on the published criteria - they did take the time to read those, right?
Andy, you request help to circumvent a process that is far from perfect, yet is our best hedge against the unscrupulous. I suppose the best advise for them is to hire a consultant who is fully conversant in the procedures for obtaining address spaces and an AS number. That's their best bet.
- Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Getting an AS and /18
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted the form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Bob <melange@yip.org> | Stop dwelling and start living.
So re-reading Andy's post, I think people have misread it - he doesn't appear to be asking for help in circumventing ARIN's procedures, he wants help in following it, if one notes the actual questions he asks:
Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space?
As best I can tell, there are three answers to this vague question: (1) Your existing address space (assigned to you from your upstream[s]) must be SWIPed to you. (2) The address space you have assigned to your cable head-ends must be SWIPed in ARIN"s WHOIS database. This is a special requirement for cable operators. (3) Address space you have assigned downstream for non-cable operations must be SWIPed.
Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
Well, I took it the other way, because the Registration Services Helpdesk at ARIN is very accessible, and generally speaking, the analysts who answer the phones are happy to help you understand the policies and answer any questions you have. You don't need a 'special contact' to be successful with ARIN. This operator should be able to accomplish his goals with ARIN simply by working with the staff there in a cooperative effort to demonstrate compliance with the applicable policies. /david
Bob said it better than myself. I just want help compling with ARIN's rules and justifications to get some address space for this customer. When the documentation comes back wanting signed contracts, receipts for the equipment, SWIP information......... and so on... It seems like a daunting task. I nor the customer have never been through this before. I just wanted to get input from someone that has gone through it before. I certainly wouldn't want ARIN handing out a /18 to a business that will never utilize it. I understand why the rules and justifications are in place. --- Bob K <melange@yip.org> wrote:
So re-reading Andy's post, I think people have misread it - he doesn't appear to be asking for help in circumventing ARIN's procedures, he wants help in following it, if one notes the actual questions he asks:
Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space?
Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
But that's just my take on it.
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Daniel Golding wrote:
I suspect this is a troll. However, I'll take the bait...
Why should this organization get any sort of special treatment?
have been too slack to properly SWIP their blocks? Because they don't feel like submitting the proper documentation?
You posit that the customer genuinely needs the address space. How do we, as an Internet community discover that? The only way is documentation.
I find it rather hard to believe that an organization without an AS, qualifies for a /18, based on the published criteria - they did take the time to read those, right?
Andy, you request help to circumvent a process that is far from
is our best hedge against the unscrupulous. I suppose the best advise for them is to hire a consultant who is fully conversant in the
obtaining address spaces and an AS number. That's their best bet.
- Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Getting an AS and /18
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted
form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person
Because they perfect, yet procedures for the they can
talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Bob <melange@yip.org> | Stop dwelling and start living.
===== Andy Ellifson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Andy, I just went through all this myself. I'm not a cable modem provider, so the rules may be slightly different. In the beginning, I had SWIP'd records. However, as most net admins, I had fallen way behind on this. Here's what I did to rectify my problem: a) Created a spreadsheet listing parent CIDR delgations from our upstream. Broke those out into subnets that we delegate to customers, ping scan them periodically, and get a max utilization. Sum your total current space and max usage, get a percentage. So long as the company holds 1 ip over a /19, they are eligible for a /18 AFAIK. b) Apply for an ASN at this point. Tell ARIN you are going to be multihoming, and can provide signed contracts with ISP's proving this. Without multihoming, you don't need an ASN -- your upstream should be more than happy to announce your address space for you later on. c) Take all that spreadsheet data, and throw it into an rwhois server. For a /20 worth of addresses, this took me the better part of 3-4 days of data entry. I would expect it would take one person 12-16 days for a /18 worth of addresses. Need it faster? Throw more people at data entry. d) Get your rwhoisd server up and running. By this time, you should have your ASN number (took us about 1 week). Fill out the IPv4 request template. Send it in. After a day or two, they'll email you back asking you a few things about your policies on how you decide how many IP's a customer gets. I think that they just want to hear the policies that they have on their website (i.e. target 80% utilization within 3 months). 1 week later you should have an allocation. e) Start migrating stuff over. When you make delegations in your new /18, put them in your rwhois server. You'll need it when you go back to ask for more address space in a year, and why go through all this stress more than once. If they give you grief about a /18, ask for a /19 and ask them to "reserve" the other /19 space within a /18. Prove to them that you are effectively utilizing the /19 and they'll probably give/sell you the other half. Someone else here mentioned that the folks at ARIN are truly helpful -- They are. I emailed them a few times asking for clarification on some of the forms, and I had answers within the hour. My $0.02, and I just turned up my ASN and my netblock today! On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:50:55PM -0700, Andy Ellifson wrote:
Bob said it better than myself. I just want help compling with ARIN's rules and justifications to get some address space for this customer. When the documentation comes back wanting signed contracts, receipts for the equipment, SWIP information......... and so on... It seems like a daunting task.
I nor the customer have never been through this before. I just wanted to get input from someone that has gone through it before. I certainly wouldn't want ARIN handing out a /18 to a business that will never utilize it. I understand why the rules and justifications are in place.
--- Bob K <melange@yip.org> wrote:
So re-reading Andy's post, I think people have misread it - he doesn't appear to be asking for help in circumventing ARIN's procedures, he wants help in following it, if one notes the actual questions he asks:
Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space?
Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
But that's just my take on it.
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Daniel Golding wrote:
I suspect this is a troll. However, I'll take the bait...
Why should this organization get any sort of special treatment?
have been too slack to properly SWIP their blocks? Because they don't feel like submitting the proper documentation?
You posit that the customer genuinely needs the address space. How do we, as an Internet community discover that? The only way is documentation.
I find it rather hard to believe that an organization without an AS, qualifies for a /18, based on the published criteria - they did take the time to read those, right?
Andy, you request help to circumvent a process that is far from
is our best hedge against the unscrupulous. I suppose the best advise for them is to hire a consultant who is fully conversant in the
obtaining address spaces and an AS number. That's their best bet.
- Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Getting an AS and /18
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted
form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person
Because they perfect, yet procedures for the they can
talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Bob <melange@yip.org> | Stop dwelling and start living.
===== Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Marius Strom <marius@marius.org> Professional Geek/Unix System Administrator URL: http://www.marius.org/ http://www.marius.org/marius.pgp 0xF5D89089 *updated 2001-02-26* It is a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back and so, here we are, victims of mathematics. -- Londo, "A Voice in the Wilderness I"
Please understand that the rules are different for cable providers. They are required to SWIP only to their head-ends, but it must be SWIP, not RWHOIS. This is typically a small number of SWIPs, as you SWIP out to geographically-central head-ends. /david
Andy, I just went through all this myself. I'm not a cable modem provider, so the rules may be slightly different.
In the beginning, I had SWIP'd records. However, as most net admins, I had fallen way behind on this. Here's what I did to rectify my problem:
a) Created a spreadsheet listing parent CIDR delgations from our upstream. Broke those out into subnets that we delegate to customers, ping scan them periodically, and get a max utilization. Sum your total current space and max usage, get a percentage. So long as the company holds 1 ip over a /19, they are eligible for a /18 AFAIK.
b) Apply for an ASN at this point. Tell ARIN you are going to be multihoming, and can provide signed contracts with ISP's proving this. Without multihoming, you don't need an ASN -- your upstream should be more than happy to announce your address space for you later on.
c) Take all that spreadsheet data, and throw it into an rwhois server. For a /20 worth of addresses, this took me the better part of 3-4 days of data entry. I would expect it would take one person 12-16 days for a /18 worth of addresses. Need it faster? Throw more people at data entry.
d) Get your rwhoisd server up and running. By this time, you should have your ASN number (took us about 1 week). Fill out the IPv4 request template. Send it in. After a day or two, they'll email you back asking you a few things about your policies on how you decide how many IP's a customer gets. I think that they just want to hear the policies that they have on their website (i.e. target 80% utilization within 3 months). 1 week later you should have an allocation.
e) Start migrating stuff over. When you make delegations in your new /18, put them in your rwhois server. You'll need it when you go back to ask for more address space in a year, and why go through all this stress more than once.
If they give you grief about a /18, ask for a /19 and ask them to "reserve" the other /19 space within a /18. Prove to them that you are effectively utilizing the /19 and they'll probably give/sell you the other half.
Someone else here mentioned that the folks at ARIN are truly helpful -- They are. I emailed them a few times asking for clarification on some of the forms, and I had answers within the hour.
My $0.02, and I just turned up my ASN and my netblock today!
On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:50:55PM -0700, Andy Ellifson wrote:
Bob said it better than myself. I just want help compling with ARIN's rules and justifications to get some address space for this customer. When the documentation comes back wanting signed contracts, receipts for the equipment, SWIP information......... and so on... It seems like a daunting task.
I nor the customer have never been through this before. I just wanted to get input from someone that has gone through it before. I certainly wouldn't want ARIN handing out a /18 to a business that will never utilize it. I understand why the rules and justifications are in place.
--- Bob K <melange@yip.org> wrote:
So re-reading Andy's post, I think people have misread it - he doesn't appear to be asking for help in circumventing ARIN's procedures, he wants help in following it, if one notes the actual questions he asks:
Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space?
Does anyone know of a person they can talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
But that's just my take on it.
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Daniel Golding wrote:
I suspect this is a troll. However, I'll take the bait...
Why should this organization get any sort of special treatment?
have been too slack to properly SWIP their blocks? Because they don't feel like submitting the proper documentation?
You posit that the customer genuinely needs the address space. How do we, as an Internet community discover that? The only way is documentation.
I find it rather hard to believe that an organization without an AS, qualifies for a /18, based on the published criteria - they did take the time to read those, right?
Andy, you request help to circumvent a process that is far from
is our best hedge against the unscrupulous. I suppose the best advise for them is to hire a consultant who is fully conversant in the
obtaining address spaces and an AS number. That's their best bet.
- Daniel Golding
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Andy Ellifson Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:50 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Getting an AS and /18
I have a customer that is a cable modem provider. They submitted
form to request an AS and some address space. The response from ARIN wanted a ton of documentation. I understand why ARIN requires all of the documentation. Does ARIN require a ton of SWIPS be present for the customer before they will issue address space? This customer genuinely needs the address space but doesn't have the time to gather up all the information that is 'required'. Does anyone know of a person
Because they perfect, yet procedures for the they can
talk to at ARIN to help with this process?
-Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Bob <melange@yip.org> | Stop dwelling and start living.
===== Andy Ellifson
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
-- Marius Strom <marius@marius.org> Professional Geek/Unix System Administrator URL: http://www.marius.org/ http://www.marius.org/marius.pgp 0xF5D89089 *updated 2001-02-26*
It is a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back and so, here we are, victims of mathematics. -- Londo, "A Voice in the Wilderness I"
*--------------------------------* | Global Crossing IP Engineering | | Manager, Global IP Addressing | | TEL: (908) 720-6182 | | FAX: (703) 464-0802 | *--------------------------------*
...and while we're on the subject of SWIPs, can I get a pet peeve off my chest - the fact that RADB entries are updated in minutes, yet it takes typically 24 hours or more for a SWIP database change to show up in the servers (and the next day to even determine that the change was accepted by the servers)? Is there any real reason for ARIN to not be able to update the database in near-real-time? On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:33:41PM -0700, David R Huberman wrote:
Please understand that the rules are different for cable providers. They are required to SWIP only to their head-ends, but it must be SWIP, not RWHOIS. This is typically a small number of SWIPs, as you SWIP out to geographically-central head-ends.
/david
--------------------------- Christopher A. Woodfield rekoil@semihuman.com PGP Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB887618B
Speaking of .... What IS going on with rwhois? I heard some talk at the SF ARIN meeting about enhancing the rwhois code and making it more workable for ISPs. IMHO - SWIP is a generally inferior system ... at least to the potential of using rwhois. The real leverage comes if it can be integrated into larger distributed database systems. Maintaining delegation information is a pain. Having valid delegation of IP address space helps in tracking the guys with black hats. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to develop a mechanism to limit views of contact information to valid ASN POCs via some form of keyed access ... since those who work in the AS/BGP space need to know who to contact as the source of packet, as apposed to marketing organizations. Are the registries going to actively work to extend and enhance rwhois? -- Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk@titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein@adelphiacom.com "... the true value of the Internet is its connectedness ..." -- John W. Stewart III
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Joseph T. Klein wrote:
Maintaining delegation information is a pain. Having valid delegation of IP address space helps in tracking the guys with black hats.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to develop a mechanism to limit views of contact information to valid ASN POCs via some form of keyed access ... since those who work in the AS/BGP space need to know who to contact as the source of packet, as apposed to marketing organizations.
Not fair toward the general public. Besides those wearing hats of many colors and marketing interests, there are many legitimate uses of this information. Why hide such data anyway? Imagine the public outcry. Also to be considered are foreign registries (i.e., APNIC), and the data they provide. One may expect consistency... --Mitch NetSide
Not fair toward the general public. Besides those wearing hats of many colors and marketing interests, there are many legitimate uses of this information. Why hide such data anyway?
because the major use of the whois data has become spam randy
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Randy Bush wrote:
Not fair toward the general public. Besides those wearing hats of many colors and marketing interests, there are many legitimate uses of this information. Why hide such data anyway?
because the major use of the whois data has become spam
randy
You mean spammers are so stupid as not to know that spamming a network POC is the quickest way to account oblivion? If anything, I thought they weed out such addresses from their lists... --Mitch NetSide
On Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:21:36 EDT, Mitch Halmu said:
You mean spammers are so stupid as not to know that spamming a network POC is the quickest way to account oblivion? If anything, I thought they weed out such addresses from their lists...
There's a lot of spammers out there that just fell out of a tree and haven't learned that 'ietf@ietf.org' is not a good target... ;) -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:21:36 EDT, Mitch Halmu said:
You mean spammers are so stupid as not to know that spamming a network POC is the quickest way to account oblivion? If anything, I thought they weed out such addresses from their lists...
There's a lot of spammers out there that just fell out of a tree and haven't learned that 'ietf@ietf.org' is not a good target... ;)
I long ago concluded that this was out of sheer spite...I've only just recently started wondering if this has anything to do with Mexican Trucks... :) James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor up@3.am http://3.am =========================================================================
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Mitch Halmu wrote:
You mean spammers are so stupid as not to know that spamming a network POC is the quickest way to account oblivion?
Correct.
If anything, I thought they weed out such addresses from their lists...
Bahahahahahahahahahaa*cough**cough*hahahahahahahaha Er, no they don't. Not most of 'em, anyhow. -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
Yo Randy! That may be, but I still need valid whois data to track down network problems in progress. I use whois many times a day for this and bad data just makes net management a lot harder. RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Ave, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Randy Bush wrote:
Not fair toward the general public. Besides those wearing hats of many colors and marketing interests, there are many legitimate uses of this information. Why hide such data anyway?
because the major use of the whois data has become spam
On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:41:12PM -0700, Gary E. Miller wrote:
Yo Randy!
That may be, but I still need valid whois data to track down network problems in progress. I use whois many times a day for this and bad data just makes net management a lot harder.
Instead of keeping e-mail addresses in WHOIS, why not just keep a URL that (theoretically) has up-to-date contact information. This would allow the organization to publish whatever e-mail addresses they wanted to, as well as solving the problem of spammers walking the db. A web page should be just as easy (if not easier) to keep up to date than WHOIS data. --Adam
A URL that I'm sure is real easy to get to if the network in question has just dropped off the face of the earth, or if you're getting DoS'ed from it... -C
Instead of keeping e-mail addresses in WHOIS, why not just keep a URL that (theoretically) has up-to-date contact information. This would allow the organization to publish whatever e-mail addresses they wanted to, as well as solving the problem of spammers walking the db. A web page should be just as easy (if not easier) to keep up to date than WHOIS data.
--Adam
-- --------------------------- Christopher A. Woodfield rekoil@semihuman.com PGP Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB887618B
On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:24:35PM -0400, Christopher A. Woodfield wrote:
A URL that I'm sure is real easy to get to if the network in question has just dropped off the face of the earth, or if you're getting DoS'ed from it...
So how about having a primary and secondary URL, on different networks? HMM, this is starting to sound like another discussion :) Of course, this would be much easier to implement than off-network secondary DNS, since there are 20 million free web hosting services around, and if you insist on paying, you can get an account with pretty much any ISP for under $20. --Adam
...
because the major use of the whois data has become spam
I'll ask my friends in the DMA (Direct Marketing Association) and the IAB (the _other_ IAB, the one that's Got Milk, the Internet Advertizing Board) about the quality of the whois data from their perspective. My sense is it (registrant email/smail/isp data) is cheaper than $.10/unit mailing lists, and not as well maintained as $1/unit lists. I just can't recall a major on-line add campaign that spammed. I suspect that whois spammers are fairly far down in the food chain, since it is "free data", and utterly unmaintained historically. The interesting question (to me) is if "social data" [1] is policied, a la p3p-esque metadata describing the data collection practices at the point of collection, and subsequent onward-transport (reseller -> registrar (and in the case of a "thick registry" [2]) -> registry), then can (r)whois servers policy queries and meet the operational requirements of all of the (r)whois communities? Generallized, if metadata is available to policy data, is this sufficient mechanism to jurisdictionalize (j19n) the privacy (US) and data collection (OEDC & EU) policy regimes? I like this approach, but my year-in-P3P may have affected my vision. I'm putting it in XRP (provreg WG, Apps AD), as an option for registry operators. Another approach to the problem is simply to assert that registrant contact information serves no useful operational purpose, and serve only technical and administrative contact data via whois:43, and declare that as meeting the operational requirements of all ... and putting the trademark et al on a distinct port, with a _vastly_ better query mechanism, and providing some access control mechanism(s) for "sponsored interfaces" to the registry data. This should a) satisfy operators, and b) satisfy trademark owners, and c) leave spammers out in the cold. If you use whois:43 in an innovative way, please drop me a line, with the string "whoisFIX" in the subject line. There will be another whois BOF at London. Thanks for the opening line Randy. Who was that masked man? Eric [1] draft-ietf-provreg-epp-contact-02.txt [2] draft-ietf-provreg-dn-defn-01.txt
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote:
...
because the major use of the whois data has become spam
I'll ask my friends in the DMA (Direct Marketing Association) and the IAB (the _other_ IAB, the one that's Got Milk, the Internet Advertizing Board) about the quality of the whois data from their perspective. My sense is it (registrant email/smail/isp data) is cheaper than $.10/unit mailing lists, and not as well maintained as $1/unit lists. I just can't recall a major on-line add campaign that spammed.
I suspect that whois spammers are fairly far down in the food chain, since it is "free data", and utterly unmaintained historically.
There are two distinct sets of information. What I originally referred to was the ARIN data for ip delegation and rwhois servers. It is pretty obvious that those collecting such contact email addresses and spamming network owners must literally have a cyber death wish. The other set is the whois maintained by domain registrars. There, Randy may have a point, although the legitimate use of such data far outweighs the spam problem. [snip]
Thanks for the opening line Randy. Who was that masked man?
Eric
Actually, I'm a bit surprised he brought it up, considering the Verio vs. Register.com legal skirmish. ;) --Mitch NetSide
On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 06:23:30PM +0000, Joseph T. Klein wrote: [snip]
What IS going on with rwhois? I heard some talk at the SF ARIN meeting about enhancing the rwhois code and making it more workable for ISPs. IMHO - SWIP is a generally inferior system ... at least to the potential of using rwhois. The real leverage comes if it can be integrated into larger distributed database systems. [snip]
Traffic on the DBWG list is light (I'm just as guilty of not enough time as other people on the list). The last thread involved making the ARIN IRR actually useful, swip/whois/IRR-like models, etc. I'd encourage those of us in the ARIN region to be involved in makingthe wheezing steam-engines better. http://www.arin.net/governance/workgroups.htm#da says: "The Database Implementation Working Group was formed to discuss problems with existing database systems and how to address them." Cheers, Joe -- Joe Provo Voice 508.486.7471 Director, Internet Planning & Design Fax 508.229.2375 Network Deployment & Management, RCN <joe.provo@rcn.com>
[ On Monday, July 2, 2001 at 20:59:49 (-0500), Marius Strom wrote: ]
Subject: Re: Getting an AS and /18
c) Take all that spreadsheet data, and throw it into an rwhois server. For a /20 worth of addresses, this took me the better part of 3-4 days of data entry. I would expect it would take one person 12-16 days for a /18 worth of addresses. Need it faster? Throw more people at data entry.
This "spreadsheet" and "data-entry" stuff seems like the wrong way to go about things! Using a spreadsheet to split out subnet lists seems like way-over-kill. Don't you already have routing tables or other configuration data that lists all this stuff somewhere? As for needing to do data-entry, well all the data comes from computers in the first place. It should only take a competent programmer a day or two at most, and maybe even just an hour or two at best, to hack together something to manipulate it from one form to another as required. -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP <gwoods@acm.org> <woods@robohack.ca> Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>
Greg A. Woods wrote:
[ On Monday, July 2, 2001 at 20:59:49 (-0500), Marius Strom wrote: ]
Subject: Re: Getting an AS and /18
c) Take all that spreadsheet data, and throw it into an rwhois server. For a /20 worth of addresses, this took me the better part of 3-4 days of data entry. I would expect it would take one person 12-16 days for a /18 worth of addresses. Need it faster? Throw more people at data entry.
This "spreadsheet" and "data-entry" stuff seems like the wrong way to go about things!
Using a spreadsheet to split out subnet lists seems like way-over-kill. Don't you already have routing tables or other configuration data that lists all this stuff somewhere?
As for needing to do data-entry, well all the data comes from computers in the first place. It should only take a competent programmer a day or two at most, and maybe even just an hour or two at best, to hack together something to manipulate it from one form to another as required.
This, of course, assumes that such data is: A) Correct B) In a machine-parseable format If they're not already running rWhois, and think this is a big project, then chances are one (usually, both) of the above isn't true. It certainly hasn't been, in most places that I've been which didn't run a database to track it already. Humans are amazingly good at drawing useful information from poor formats, and at noticing errors when testing said information and finding probable error points (well, OK, humans with any experience in doing so). They're also amazingly bad, in my experience, about remembering to fix the bad data, or deciding on a consistant format among themselves, without some external force requiring it (usually beyond the mere "policy" and into the "proactive enforcement" level). On the other hand, using said data entry clerks to do the entry into a new system that *does* have those features, and test/cross-check/debug the data as it's being input (as well as cross-checking each other, very important)... well, error rates are still non-zero, but they do go down a lot. -- *************************************************************************** Joel Baker System Administrator - lightbearer.com lucifer@lightbearer.com http://www.lightbearer.com/~lucifer
If they're not already running rWhois, and think this is a big project, then chances are one (usually, both) of the above isn't true. It certainly hasn't been, in most places that I've been which didn't run a database to track it already.
This is part of the reason ARIN insists you get your !@)# in order before they give you a whole bunch of IPs to lose track of. DS
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Andy Ellifson wrote:
Bob said it better than myself. I just want help compling with ARIN's rules and justifications to get some address space for this customer. When the documentation comes back wanting signed contracts, receipts for the equipment, SWIP information......... and so on... It seems like a daunting task.
I nor the customer have never been through this before. I just wanted to get input from someone that has gone through it before. I certainly wouldn't want ARIN handing out a /18 to a business that will never utilize it. I understand why the rules and justifications are in place.
Be sure to use RFC1918 addresses for the cable modems and all other equipment that does not need routable addresses. It will make your network run better(tm) and will also make ARIN happy if you mention it in your request. regards, fletcher
Be sure to use RFC1918 addresses for the cable modems and all other equipment that does not need routable addresses. It will make your network run better(tm) and will also make ARIN happy if you mention it in your request.
There is no reason to feel, as a requestor, that you need to do things to 'placate ARIN's feelings'. ARIN has no stake in whether operators use RFC1918 address space wherever (in)appropriate. Such utilization has ZERO bearing on whether a requestor is justified for an assignment or additional assignment of address space or the assignment of an AS number. For years I have heard people discuss various things to do to 'make [insert RIR here] happy'. The only thing you, as a requestor or network operator, need to do to have success when dealing with the RIRs is to follow their rules (or be willing to work with them to identify and understand the rules) and not be an unpleasant jerk while corresponding and/or directly talking with them. (The latter doesn't really have a bearing on success directly, but c'mon, with the exception of John Frazier whom I'm convinced is a bot, we're all humans.) /david
On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, David R Huberman wrote:
bearing on success directly, but c'mon, with the exception of John Frazier whom I'm convinced is a bot, we're all humans.)
/david
Thanks David. I'm not a bot. I'm a beer droid. <g> Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. --- John Fraizer EnterZone, Inc
participants (21)
-
Adam McKenna -
Andy Ellifson -
Bob K -
Christopher A. Woodfield -
Daniel Golding -
David R Huberman -
David Schwartz -
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine -
Fletcher E Kittredge -
Gary E. Miller -
Joe Provo -
John Fraizer -
Joseph T. Klein -
lucifer＠lightbearer.com -
Marius Strom -
Mitch Halmu -
Randy Bush -
Steven J. Sobol -
up＠3.am -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu -
woods＠weird.com