Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)
: Be real carfull with Zebra, I got stung big time !!! What I run is actually Quagga, despite saying Zebra. Would you share your experiences ? James Edwards Routing and Security jamesh@cybermesa.com At the Santa Fe Office: Internet at Cyber Mesa Store hours: 9-6 Monday through Friday 505-988-9200 SIP:1(747)669-1965
almost all times I hear people saying there is problem with Zebra or Quagga, more than half of all times it is problem with their OS, not the daemon. On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 05:00:06PM -0700, james wrote:
: Be real carfull with Zebra, I got stung big time !!!
What I run is actually Quagga, despite saying Zebra. Would you share your experiences ?
James Edwards Routing and Security jamesh@cybermesa.com At the Santa Fe Office: Internet at Cyber Mesa Store hours: 9-6 Monday through Friday 505-988-9200 SIP:1(747)669-1965
-- James Jun (formerly Haesu) TowardEX Technologies, Inc. 1740 Massachusetts Ave. Boxborough, MA 01719 Consulting, IPv4 & IPv6 colocation, web hosting, network design & implementation http://www.towardex.com | james@towardex.com Cell: (978)394-2867 | Office: (978)263-3399 Ext. 170 Fax: (978)263-0033 | AIM: GigabitEthernet0 NOC: http://www.twdx.net | POC: HAESU-ARIN, HDJ1-6BONE
----- Original Message ----- From: <haesu@towardex.com> To: "james" <hackerwacker@cybermesa.com> Cc: "Danny Burns" <danny.burns@dial.pipex.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:36 PM Subject: Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)
almost all times I hear people saying there is problem with Zebra or
Quagga,
more than half of all times it is problem with their OS, not the daemon.
... and we care because? the router is a black box. if the output is not what is expected, it matters not why. though understandable, it is still not acceptable. </imho> paul
... and we care because? the router is a black box. if the output is not what is expected, it matters not why. though understandable, it is still not acceptable. </imho>
and you blame zebra ? if an equipment / vendor you have on your network is not acceptable, do what is acceptable such as (get another vendor|debug the problem|call the support) etc
paul
-- James Jun (formerly Haesu) TowardEX Technologies, Inc. 1740 Massachusetts Ave. Boxborough, MA 01719 Consulting, IPv4 & IPv6 colocation, web hosting, network design & implementation http://www.towardex.com | james@towardex.com Cell: (978)394-2867 | Office: (978)263-3399 Ext. 170 Fax: (978)263-0033 | AIM: GigabitEthernet0 NOC: http://www.twdx.net | POC: HAESU-ARIN, HDJ1-6BONE
----- Original Message ----- From: <haesu@towardex.com> To: "Paul" <paul@rusko.us> Cc: <haesu@towardex.com>; "james" <hackerwacker@cybermesa.com>; "Danny Burns" <danny.burns@dial.pipex.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:06 PM Subject: Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)
... and we care because? the router is a black box. if the output is not what is expected, it matters not why. though understandable, it is still not acceptable. </imho>
and you blame zebra ?
no, i blame the solution. if fans in my switch keep dying, i blame the manufacturer of the switch for picking an unreliable fan manufactuer, not the manufacturer of the fan alone.
if an equipment / vendor you have on your network is not acceptable, do what is acceptable such as (get another vendor|debug the problem|call the support) etc
yes. i handle this by not using zebra/(.*)OS boxes for tasks that are better handled by something else. paul
no, i blame the solution. if fans in my switch keep dying, i blame the manufacturer of the switch for picking an unreliable fan manufactuer, not the manufacturer of the fan alone.
wrong. more than half of all problems i hear, the _fan_ is the OS or the implementation by user, not zebra/quagga.
if an equipment / vendor you have on your network is not acceptable, do what is acceptable such as (get another vendor|debug the problem|call the support) etc
yes. i handle this by not using zebra/(.*)OS boxes for tasks that are better handled by something else.
paul
-- James Jun (formerly Haesu) TowardEX Technologies, Inc. 1740 Massachusetts Ave. Boxborough, MA 01719 Consulting, IPv4 & IPv6 colocation, web hosting, network design & implementation http://www.towardex.com | james@towardex.com Cell: (978)394-2867 | Office: (978)263-3399 Ext. 170 Fax: (978)263-0033 | AIM: GigabitEthernet0 NOC: http://www.twdx.net | POC: HAESU-ARIN, HDJ1-6BONE
----- Original Message ----- From: <haesu@towardex.com> To: "Paul" <paul@rusko.us> Cc: <haesu@towardex.com>; "james" <hackerwacker@cybermesa.com>; "Danny Burns" <danny.burns@dial.pipex.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:18 PM Subject: Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)
no, i blame the solution. if fans in my switch keep dying, i blame the manufacturer of the switch for picking an unreliable fan manufactuer,
not
the manufacturer of the fan alone.
wrong. more than half of all problems i hear, the _fan_ is the OS or the implementation by user, not zebra/quagga.
that is exactly the way i meant it. paul
On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 08:06:50PM -0500, haesu@towardex.com wrote:
... and we care because? the router is a black box. if the output is not what is expected, it matters not why. though understandable, it is still not acceptable. </imho>
and you blame zebra ?
There are so many many many legitimate things to blame Zebra for, and so many more legitimate things to blame Linux for, that when you put the two of them together there is no need to make up problems that aren't their fault. The reasons that PC routers bite have nothing to do with the fact that they use PC hardware, the limitations of the PCI bus, or any other nonsense like that. PC routers bite because of the software, pure and simple. Raw forwarding performance is only a small component of a quality router, the rest is SOFTWARE, SOFTWARE, and MORE SOFTWARE. Unfortunately, software quality isn't easy to measure in numbers other than units sold. On the topic of PC routers, I've fully given in to the zen of Randy Bush. I FULLY encourage my competitor to use them. :) -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
On the topic of PC routers, I've fully given in to the zen of Randy Bush. I FULLY encourage my competitor to use them. :)
actually, i stole it from mike o'dell. he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss using home appliances to build a global network." randy
He also said that Internet is growing by 1000% a year. In fact I think that it is an extremely bad idea to use clusters of enterprise boxes to build a global network. --vadim On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Randy Bush wrote:
On the topic of PC routers, I've fully given in to the zen of Randy Bush. I FULLY encourage my competitor to use them. :)
actually, i stole it from mike o'dell.
he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss using home appliances to build a global network."
randy
he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss using home appliances to build a global network."
Hmm actually I'm not so sure, the trend has been the opposite .. lots of PCs instead of mainframes and dumb terminals and the Internet itself has been about spreading out the networking rather than centralizing it. Todays 'home appliances' have computing power in excess of that of todays routing equipment, the shortcoming is only the implementation and I think that is getting pretty close now to doing what we require at the low and medium end, and I dont see that high end is that difficult.. if the implementation works its just a matter of scaling, can you buy linecards with their own backplane yet..? if not I cant see it being hard and if the demand arises... Steve
Hmm; home equipment is, in many cases, much better than _industrial one_, if you concern about price/perfoamce . Good example - HD disks. Industrial SCSI disks are 2 steps behind home, IDE, ones. Home made computer is, in many cases, much better than industrial SERVER, from DELL. Reason is very simple - companies have a very high price competition in home market, and it drives prices down. Industrial market is much more conservative. Cisco vs Linksys was a very good example - 100$ vs 1000$, doing _almost_ the same. (I do not advocate an idea of PC Router). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen J. Wilcox" <steve@telecomplete.co.uk> To: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> Cc: "Richard A Steenbergen" <ras@e-gerbil.net>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:33 AM Subject: Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)
he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss
appliances to build a global network."
Hmm actually I'm not so sure, the trend has been the opposite .. lots of PCs instead of mainframes and dumb terminals and the Internet itself has been about spreading out the networking rather than centralizing it.
Todays 'home appliances' have computing power in excess of that of todays routing equipment, the shortcoming is only the implementation and I think
using home that
is getting pretty close now to doing what we require at the low and medium end, and I dont see that high end is that difficult.. if the implementation works its just a matter of scaling, can you buy linecards with their own backplane yet..? if not I cant see it being hard and if the demand arises...
Steve
participants (8)
-
Alexei Roudnev -
haesu＠towardex.com -
james -
Paul -
Randy Bush -
Richard A Steenbergen -
Stephen J. Wilcox -
Vadim Antonov