i) prefix length is unfortunately not directly related to the "need" for multihoming. ii) multihoming costs the person receiving the multihoming an amount of money that is variably determined by their upstream proviers. iii) the number of prefixes that _would_ multihome if they: a) had the appropriate equipment b) had the appropriate tech-brains c) had an ASN d) had connections through multiple providers is _not_ known. if you don't believe i) just imagine a content provider that is really interested in reaching its customers through the most direct and fast path possible, and who can't afford any outages. (their content isn't really worth much during an outage). ii) and iii) are important, taken together. is _your_ router going to explode if my /24 gets added to your table? of course not. your main concern is that your router explodes if _too_ many people's prefixes, of whatever size, get added to your table. this is, i think, a good thing to worry about, but it's a little early to be worrying. if nothing else (and i'm most certainly not arguing that this is the best solution), market pressure can be applied at points ii) and iii) to reduce to an arbitrarily small number the number of prefixes of concern here. all arguments of the variety, "i pass X [MGT]bits/sec, that's why i qualify and you don't" or of the variety "i house a network of size /X and that's why i qualify and you don't" are specious as well. ISP's need to multihome for reasons quite different (well, exactly the same but in an inverted direction) from the reasons that content providers do. it's important to note that prefix length is _not_ always, or perhaps even often, directly related to amount of traffic passed. obligatory attempt at a useful comment: completely ooma(tm) speculation, but i wonder if this would work: (if someone's done this calculation, or can back-of-the-envelope do it, i'd be curious to hear the results): consider the size of an ideally "full" route table for a particular traffic-passing router. consider a) the amount of time it takes for a "maximal" percentage of particular prefixes in that table to actually pass traffic across two of your interfaces and b) acceptable latency across those two interfaces in your router. ("maximal" here means whatever your router's prefix table capacity is, and "full" means the size that we as a community need to be able to support but currently cannot.) it's possible that you can: update a "cache" of prefix entries locally against a slower, but more "expandable" prefix-server. the long and the short of it is, you offload the "live" route table to a slower (read more cheapy expandable) box that has a fast connection to your router(s). when a packet's destination route prefix isn't contained in the cache, the prefix-server is polled (remember, very low latency to this box) for the correct route, and it's added to the table. prefixes not used for awhile age out of the local cache, and prefixes currently in use are checked (through the prefix-server) periodically to determine validity. end-to-end (from far-flung BGP speaking routers) propogation time for route information isn't exactly zippy right now anyway, so it shouldn't bother anyone that "best-path as currently should be known to me" isn't always taken for every packet. so the tradeoff is more clear here -- the "slow" table server could conceivably use very cheap technology for table storage (many GB of RAM on something with a slow CPU, or even perhaps a fast-enough RAID array spring to mind), and the "fast" router only needs to poll at a rate commensurate with acceptable latency. the "slow" box and "fast" box could be independent units inside of a commercial router or not, and the "fast" link between the live table and the cache should be cheap enough. i'm not describing a route server here, really. i'm really talking about offloading the space requirements to something that's slower, and using a local cache to (presumably) keep router table size down. (this external box _would_ be the one responsible for propogating bgp updates to your peers, and inbound bgp updates would be transparently redirected by the router to this box to deal with). s.
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 05:11:51PM -0700, steve uurtamo wrote:
iii) the number of prefixes that _would_ multihome if they:
a) had the appropriate equipment b) had the appropriate tech-brains c) had an ASN d) had connections through multiple providers
is _not_ known.
It is known. You forget one point, e) find it financially attractive, but all together the upper bound is all sites. There is a good technical argument (in the abstract, not with today's system) to be made that everyone should be multihomed, down to dual-DSL lines, dual-dial up lines, dual whatever access is available. Of course, for a number of reasons this will never happen, most of them come back to it not being financially attractive for the users or for the service providers. If you design everything from the ground up such that each "site" is multihomed by default, and can develop systems that scale to that goal than no matter how many people choose to multihome the system will work. I believe it is technologically possible to make every site requirement. It would never happen with today's protocols, and alias with the direction IPv6 is taking I don't see a light at the end of that tunnel wrt multihoming. The technology may be prohibitively expensive at some cut off point, but at least at that point it would come down to simple dollars and cents for the users and an ISP, and not a maze of similar but slightly different rules. I know someone will want to argue that it is not possible to allow _everyone_ to multihome, so I will go ahead and suggest an example of a network very close to that goal, in fact one you can run IP over (if a tad slowly). The cellular telephone network for the most part has this property. Every phone has a number. It can dynamically connect to multiple providers, and can change providers as conditions change, or the device moves. The only property it doesn't have that IP multihoming doesn't have is the ability to use two providers at the same time; however the technology for a handset that could make a CDMA and a TMDA call at the same time on two different networks definitely exists. This is not to say I think 'cellular phone routing' would solve the IP issues if directly translated, in fact I think quite the opposite. That said, I do belive large scale systems that allow individual users to move, or multihome (I think those two items are more closely related than people think) while keeping their "address" exist. I don't do the IETF thing, but has any development effort there tried to make multihoming / mobility a requirement of a new protocol, and if so why hasn't there been more progress on that front? -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:06:16PM -0400, Leo Bicknell wrote:
I know someone will want to argue that it is not possible to allow _everyone_ to multihome, so I will go ahead and suggest an example of a network very close to that goal, in fact one you can run IP over (if a tad slowly). The cellular telephone network for the most part has this property. Every phone has a number. It can dynamically connect to multiple providers, and can change providers as conditions change, or the device moves. The only property it doesn't have that IP multihoming doesn't have is the ability to use two providers at the same time; however the technology for a handset that could make a CDMA and a TMDA call at the same time on two different networks definitely exists.
This is not to say I think 'cellular phone routing' would solve the IP issues if directly translated, in fact I think quite the opposite. That said, I do belive large scale systems that allow individual users to move, or multihome (I think those two items are more closely related than people think) while keeping their "address" exist.
The closest analog in the networking world that comes to mind for matching the properties of how both cell-phone portability and LNP work isn't IP. It's DNS. Consider the following points, each of which applies to both telco routing and DNS, but *not* to IP: 1) 'Routing' lookup done once, at the start of the transaction. 2) Relatively low overhead compared to the transaction. 3) Handled by a distributed system using local *external* query points whose primary job is providing routing information, not actually doing the routing. 4) Every address is portable between nearly arbitrary providers (and, in the case of the telco, I believe is now required to be by law). I'm far from the first person to bring this up; please see some of the excellent papers from the ATM, VOIP, and MPLS arenas about "why routing telco traffic is completely different from routing IP traffic", many of them authored by members of this forum, for further details. The primary failure points in this is that DNS recovery times are nowhere near as good as most telco re-routing times, can't occur mid-stream, and because of this combination, tends to be far more problematic when there is a failure, because people *notice* - both in that their session goes away, and that they then can't even just "redial" and blame it on a cosmic ray at the wrong time. -- *************************************************************************** Joel Baker System Administrator - lightbearer.com lucifer@lightbearer.com http://www.lightbearer.com/~lucifer
participants (3)
-
Joel Baker
-
Leo Bicknell
-
steve uurtamo